[Tig] 8mm Fullcoat Mag

Fri Dec 14 10:26:55 PST 2007

Hi and thanks to all who have responded to my post.

Nice to know it's called Regular 8mm Fullcoat. Didn't know that. Very 
interesting to read about the history of these formats also.

To my second question: I've seen sepmag machines in telecine rooms. 
With one of our telecines even a Y-connection-cable for these 
machines came "with the package" (but the sepmag machine was missing 
;-) ). I'd like to read up on these sepmag machines, but don't know 
where to start. All I know is they look something like this:

http://www.sondor.ch/pictures/full_omae.jpg

What makes/models would typically be used with FDL-90/Ursa generation 
telecines? Are there any info online about them? Manufacturers or 
even repair shops that restore them?

Thanks,
Andreas

---

At 18:06 13.12.2007, you wrote:
>Hi, Andreas, Jeff, woz et al
>
>Boy, here's something I never thought I see again. Jeff knows what 
>I'm talking about, he was there.
>
>In the late 70's and 80's at MIT Ricky Leacock, Al Mecklenburg, and 
>Jon Rosenfeld developed a super8 double system sync format that used 
>super8 fullcoat mag, run through a modified Tandberg 1/4" field 
>recorder. Around a hundred of these systems were commercially 
>produced by Hampton Engineering Associates of Canton, Massachusetts. 
>Later on, other machines were simialarly modified, most 
>significantly the "Super8Sound Recorder"  made from a Sony 
>TC800.  Super8Sound was a company spun off from MIT in Cambridge, 
>Ma, by Al and Jon in partnership with Bob Doyle of Harvard.
>
>I never saw Regular8 fullcoat myself, but I wouldn't be at all 
>surprised if the original developers started with that and then had 
>some super-8 produced. Jeff probably knows for sure, he usually does.
>
>Also Steve Talian of Multi-Track Magnetics actually produced a full 
>blown MagnaTech-style super8 fullcoat dubber, and a S-8 "Holoscope" 
>projector to go with it. But no significant market developed for it 
>due to the advent of small-format video. Indy filmakers, schools and 
>public TV stations were the intended target.
>
>Kodak made both a regular-8 and a super8 sound-on-film projector 
>that used mag-stripe film, the regular-8 one might be able to repro 
>the fullcoat if the track gets all the way to the film edge.
>
>
>I think Woz's suggestion could bear some fruit, but another 
>possibilty might be to find one of the modified 1/4" machines 
>(guides milled out to 5/16") that use a photo-interrupter and PLL 
>servo to lock the frame rate. The guides are right for your 
>regular-8 fullcoat, and (possibly with a little tweaking of the 
>photo-interrupter) you could recover the frame pulse signal 
>regardless of the size of the sprocket holes. You may also need the 
>accompanying resolver to lock it up, but another way would be to 
>feed the puse output of the photo-interrupter into a spare DAW track 
>along with the audio (sort of a "click-trtrack on steroids), you 
>could tweak the speed exactly in there to recover real-time sync playback.
>
>Check eBay. The MIT Media Lab may even have one or two machines 
>still around. I'll also copy this thread to a couple of my old 
>colleagues, and ask them to contact you if they know of any anywhere.
>
>Best of luck.
>-- Terry Lockhart
>Chief Engineer/IT manager
>Finish Editorial
>162 Columbus Ave.
>Boston, Ma 02116-5222
>
>direct/vm 617 850 6133
>main  617 292 0082 or 850 6100
>fax   617 292 0083
>cel 617 775 3195
><terry at finishedit.com>
><www.finishedit.com>
>
>"If I had foreseen rap music on the horizon,
>I wouldn't have worked so hard to get rid of disco."
>
>
>On Thursday, December 13, 2007 9:28 AM, tig-request at tig.colorist.org wrote:
>
> >------------------------------
> >
> >Message: 12
> >Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2007 11:47:41 +0100
> >From: Andreas Wideroe Andersen <andreas-tig at smalfilm.no>
> >Subject: [Tig] Sepmag and telecine
> >To: tig at colorist.org
> >Message-ID: <0JSX00AD1NBGEMW0 at osl1sminn1.broadpark.no>
> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
> >
> >Hi,
> >We just got in some 16mm films from a client with magnetic audio on
> >separate reels. The audio-tape/reel is 8mm (!) wide and looks just
> >like Regular 8mm film, but is a magnetic tape. See a photo
> >here:
> >
> >http://www.smalfilm.no/images/8mm_sepmag.jpg (large file)
> >
> >I've never seen this before. Does anyone have any background info
> >about these magnetic reels - Ie. how common are/were they? What is
> >the most common sepmag type audio format out there for film?
> >
> >What type of equipment would be used to play back these 8mm
> >reels/tapes?
> >
> >Also, what sepmag players would work with our FDL-60 and 90
> >telecines? I've seen the tall ones installed and connected to
> >telecines in machine rooms, but I don't know the names of them. What
> >brand and models should I look for?
> >
> >Cheers!
> >Andreas
> >
> >
> >
> >---
> >Norsk Smalfilm AS <post at smalfilm.no>
> >http://www.smalfilm.no
> >
> >Filmshooting | Com - http://www.filmshooting.com
> >
> >Tel:    (+47) 38 17 99 16
> >Fax:    (+47) 38 02 33 84
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >------------------------------
> >
> >Message: 13
> >Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2007 06:34:02 -0600
> >From: Jeff Kreines <jeffkreines at mindspring.com>
> >Subject: Re: [Tig] Sepmag and telecine
> >To: Andreas Wideroe Andersen <andreas-tig at smalfilm.no>
> >Cc: tig at colorist.org
> >Message-ID: <6FF8D8E5-DD18-4C16-999D-DD7855F1F272 at mindspring.com>
> >Content-Type:
> >text/plain;charset=US-ASCII;delsp=yes;format=flowed
> >
> >Hi, Andreas:
> >
> >It looks to me like the split-16mm mag that was used in the very
> >uncommon Magnasync Nomad from the early 60s.  It was a very odd
> >machine -- it attached to the camera with a flexible shaft, and was
> >driven directly by the camera motor (so it stayed in sync, even with
> >spring-wind cameras).
> >
> >The Nagra and Perfectone and Stellavox recorders all came out about
> >the same time, and offered many advantages over the Nomad, which did
> >not catch on.  It was a clever device, though I can't attest to the
> >quality.
> >
> >Of course, since you are in Europe, it could be these tapes were
> >recorded with an Erlson recorder -- here's a photo of an Erlson P80
> >that was in the estate sale of Dizzy Gillespie (and went very
> >cheaply).  Wish I'd known about it!  It would have gone well with my
> >Nomad!
> >
> >http://www.dawsonandnye.com/lot_details.html?
> >SIZE=full&auction_id=33&lot_integer=315&lot_letter=&sub=b
> >
> >Here's some discussion in German that I can't really read:
> >
> >http://www.kamera-board.de/wbb2/print.php?
> >threadid=521&page=1&sid=9abea3a08117bcf79fc72fbc6d033880
> >
> >Good luck!
> >
> >Jeff "collects early obscure portable sync sound tape
> >recorders" Kreines
> >
> >
> >On Dec 12, 2007, at 4:47 AM, Andreas Wideroe Andersen wrote:
> >
> >> I've never seen this before. Does anyone have any background info
> >> about these magnetic reels - Ie. how common are/were they? What is
> >> the most common sepmag type audio format out there for film?
> >
> >
> >
> >------------------------------
> >
> >Message: 14
> >Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2007 17:45:46 +0000
> >From: woz <warrenl at gmail.com>
> >Subject: Re: [Tig] Sepmag and telecine
> >To: "Andreas Wideroe Andersen" <andreas-tig at smalfilm.no>
> >Cc: tig at colorist.org
> >Message-ID:
> ><816d14ca0712120945x752e14aagb088a7b7fe802bdb at mail.gmail.com>
> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
> >
> >Hi Andreas,
> >Do the sprocket holes line up with 16mm perfs?  If so you might be able to
> >extract the audio using the stripe head  on a MK3, or perhaps another
> >telecine which handles stripe; you may of course have to find a way of
> >keeping the mag in a fixed place on the capstan, and tweaking the mag head
> >and or rollers for position. (make sure you have either known good stripe
> >film or test film before off-tweaking, so you can line it up afterwards).
> >Will it run through a standard 8 gate?
> >I know this not much help but might be worth a try, sorry I've not worked on
> >FDL's so don't know how stripe PB is accomplished on these.
> >Alternatively find a 'disposable' 1/4" or 1/2" tape machine and an engineer
> >who can bend or make bits to suit.
> >I guess you would have to process the audio for time tweaking afterwards,
> >unless you can get it to sync with the telecine at the correct mag speed.
> >Regards
> >woz
> >
> >On 12/12/2007, Andreas Wideroe Andersen <andreas-tig at smalfilm.no> wrote:
> >>
> >> Thanks to Rick Pagliaroli for supporting the TIG.
> >> ====
> >>
> >> Hi,
> >> We just got in some 16mm films from a client with magnetic audio on
> >> separate reels. The audio-tape/reel is 8mm (!) wide and looks just
> >> like Regular 8mm film, but is a magnetic tape. See a photo here:
> >>
> >> http://www.smalfilm.no/images/8mm_sepmag.jpg (large file)
> >>
> >> I've never seen this before. Does anyone have any background info
> >> about these magnetic reels - Ie. how common are/were they? What is
> >> the most common sepmag type audio format out there for film?
> >>
> >> What type of equipment would be used to play back these 8mm reels/tapes?
> >>
> >> Also, what sepmag players would work with our FDL-60 and 90
> >> telecines? I've seen the tall ones installed and connected to
> >> telecines in machine rooms, but I don't know the names of them. What
> >> brand and models should I look for?
> >>
> >> Cheers!
> >> Andreas
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ---
> >> Norsk Smalfilm AS <post at smalfilm.no>
> >> http://www.smalfilm.no
> >>
> >> Filmshooting | Com - http://www.filmshooting.com
> >>
> >> Tel:    (+47) 38 17 99 16
> >> Fax:    (+47) 38 02 33 84
> >>
> >>
> >_______________________________________________
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> >
> >End of Tig Digest, Vol 59, Issue 1
> >**********************************
> >

---
Norsk Smalfilm AS <post at smalfilm.no>
http://www.smalfilm.no

Filmshooting | Com - http://www.filmshooting.com

Tel:    (+47) 38 17 99 16
Fax:    (+47) 38 02 33 84 