From russellc at davsys.com Sun Mar 1 12:43:11 2009 From: russellc at davsys.com (Russell Chesley) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2009 07:43:11 -0500 Subject: [Tig] slightly OT (films). In-Reply-To: <75C95250-FADF-465C-82B6-7524411B6CED@colorist.org> References: <75C95250-FADF-465C-82B6-7524411B6CED@colorist.org> Message-ID: <090AABB6E4E8BD4D9E38C93EF065450501C3965E@exg01.davsys.com> Rob, You mentioned some good ones. Here are some other well-known classic examples of film noir that no one who loves movies should miss: The Maltese Falcon Double Indemnity Laura Murder, My Sweet To Have and Have Not The Lost Weekend Mildred Pierce Spellbound The Big Sleep The Blue Dahlia Gilda The Postman Always Rings Twice Notorious Body and Soul Lady in the Lake Key Largo The Lady from Shanghai Rope The Third Man (technically, this is a UK title) The Asphalt Jungle Sunset Boulevard Strangers on a Train Bad Day at Black Rock The Killing Sweet Smell of Success Touch of Evil Vertigo If you want to dig deeper, here are some titles that may not be quite as well known as the preceding, but they are all considered classic film noir and are all films that I can recommend to any film noir buff: They Drive By Night This Gun for Hire Shadow of a Doubt Detour Fallen Angel The House on 92nd Street Black Angel The Killers (1946) -- the 1964 version is also pretty good The Stranger Kiss of Death Out of the Past The Big Clock Cry of the City Force of Evil Criss Cross Gun Crazy D.O.A. Panic in the Streets Where the Sidewalk Ends Angel Face The Hitch-Hiker Pickup on South Street Kiss Me Deadly A Kiss Before Dying The Wrong Man Murder by Contract Now that you are thoroughly hooked on film noir, you may want to check out some other titles -- including crossovers (noir westerns, comedies, Science Fiction, musicals, horror, etc.), foreign noir (UK, France, Germany, Norway, Denmark, Netherlands, Italy, Japan, China and Hong Kong, etc.) neo-noir (post 1958 releases), proto-noir (pre 1940 releases), hybrids (psycho-noir, animated noir) and even made-for-television noir. Wikipedia has a good list of titles in several noirish categories at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_film_noir. That list is NOT comprehensive, and it doesn't rate or recommend any particular films. So here are my own edited lists of recommended films from some of the "non-classic" film noir categories: PROTO-NOIR -- M (1931) [Germany] Little Caesar (1931) Public Enemy (1931) I Am a Fugitive from a Chain Gang (1932) Scarface (1932) 20,000 Years in Sing Sing (1932) The Petrified Forest (1936) Pepe le Moko (1937) [France] Angels with Dirty Faces (1938) Each Dawn I Die (1939) FOREIGN NOIR -- Le Corbeau (1943) [France] Ossessione (1943) [Italy] Brighton Rock (1947) [UK] Drunken Angel (1948) [Japan] Le Salaire de la Peur (aka The Wages of Fear) (1953) [France] Touchez pas au Grisbi (1954) [France] Bob le Flambeur (1955) [France] Rififi (aka Du Rififi Chez les Hommes) (1955) [France] Elevator to the Gallows (aka Ascenseur pour l'Echafaud) (1958) [France] A Bout de Souffle (aka Breathless) (1960) [France] Tirez sur le Pianiste (aka Shoot the Piano Player) (1960) [France] Bande a Part (aka Band of Outsiders) (1964) [France] Le Samourai (1969) [France] The Conformist (1969) [Italy] Get Carter (1971) [UK] Der Amerikanische Freund (aka The American Friend) (1977) [Germany] The Long Good Friday (1980) [UK] Coup de Torchon (1981) [France] Veronika Voss (1982) [Germany] The Fourth Man (1983) [Netherlands] -- The "prequel" to Basic Instinct Mona Lisa (1986) [UK] The Krays (1990) [UK] La Femme Nikita (1990) [France] Zentropa (aka Europa) (1991) [Denmark] The Professional (1994) [France] Insomnia (1997) [Norway] -- remade by Chris Nolan Croupier (1998) [UK] Following (1998) [UK] -- Chris Nolan's first feature, very psycho-noir Oldboy (2003) [South Korea] -- 2nd in a good Korean psycho-noir "trilogy" [between Sympathy for Mr. Vengeance (2002) and Sympathy for Lady Vengeance (2005)] Also for your consideration, some "famous" neo-noir films (including a few crossovers/hybrids) that are outstanding and easy to recommend -- The Detective (1968) The French Connection (1971) Klute (1971) The Long Goodbye (1973) Mean Streets (1973) Soylent Green (1973) future-noir Chinatown (1974) Farewell, My Lovely (1975) Taxi Driver (1976) Blade Runner (1982) future-noir Blood Simple (1984) The Terminator (1984) future-noir Blue Velvet (1986) psycho-noir The Big Easy (1987) Reservoir Dogs (1992) Pulp Fiction (1994) Fargo (1996) L.A. Confidential (1997) Fight Club (1999) psycho-noir The Matrix (1999) future-noir The Talented Mr. Ripley (1999) American Psycho (2000) psycho-noir Memento (2000) psycho-noir Mulholland Drive (2001) psycho-noir Training Day (2001) Minority Report (2002) future-noir A History of Violence (2005) Sin City (2005) The Departed (2006) American Gangster (2007) No Country for Old Men (2007) Gone Baby Gone (2007) Eastern Promises (2007) Finally, a number of my favorite neo-noir titles (including crossovers/hybrids) that you may or may not have seen and that might like if you want to see more examples of noir elements and themes used creatively in modern movies -- Mickey One (1964) Brainstorm (1965) Hickey & Boggs (1972) The Mechanic (1972) The Friends of Eddie Coyle (1973) Mr. Majestyk (1974) Thieves Like US (1974) Night Moves (1975) The Killing of a Chinese Bookie (1976) The Driver (1978) Atlantic City (1980) Pennies from Heaven (1981) musical-noir True Confessions (1981) Manhunter (1986) Angel Heart (1987) horror-noir Dead of Winter (1987) horror-noir sequel to My Name is Julia Ross (1945) House of Games (1987) Darkman (1990) horror-noir King of New York (1990) Miller's Crossing (1990) One False Move (1992) Red Rock West (1992) Killing Zoe (1994) Lost Highway (1997) psycho-noir Dark City (1998) future-noir Existenz (1998) psycho-noir A Simple Plan (1998) Devil in a Blue Dress (1995) Se7en (1995) psycho-noir Strange Days (1995) future-noir Mulholland Falls (1996) Jackie Brown (1997) Ghost Dog: The Way of the Samurai (1999) The Limey (1999) The Ninth Gate (1999) horror-noir Road to Perdition (2002) The Salton Sea (2002) The Cooler (2003) The Machinist (2004) psycho-noir Hard Candy (2005) psycho-noir Kiss Kiss Bang Bang (2005) Shadowboxer (2005) The Three Burials of Melquiades Estrada (2005) Brick (2006) These recommendations represent my own opinions. They aren't exhaustive (although reading them may be exhausting), and anyone can feel free to disagree with any of them. Enjoy, Russ Chesley da Vinci Systems From peter_swinson at compuserve.com Sun Mar 1 15:06:41 2009 From: peter_swinson at compuserve.com (peter_swinson) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2009 10:06:41 -0500 Subject: [Tig] slightly OT (films). Message-ID: <200903011006_MC3-2-1D33-ACBD@compuserve.com> Russell Chesley offered a great list of Film Noir titles. Could I add just one more neo-noir. Bellville Rendezvous (France) A truly wonderful full length feature cartoon cheers Peter From bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us Sun Mar 1 17:10:13 2009 From: bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us (Bob Friesenhahn) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2009 11:10:13 -0600 (CST) Subject: [Tig] slightly OT (films). In-Reply-To: <090AABB6E4E8BD4D9E38C93EF065450501C3965E@exg01.davsys.com> References: <75C95250-FADF-465C-82B6-7524411B6CED@colorist.org> <090AABB6E4E8BD4D9E38C93EF065450501C3965E@exg01.davsys.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 1 Mar 2009, Russell Chesley wrote: > You mentioned some good ones. Here are some other well-known classic > examples of film noir that no one who loves movies should miss: Unfortunately it is easy to only pay attention to big films featuring big directors and big actors which were "blockbusters" in their own time. Sometimes the actual value of these big films fade over time while films which were less popular in their own time have much more value today. It is useful to retrain the lens of history to include other sorts of films. Based on this retraining of the lens, your list missed this key one from 1928: Passion de Jeanne d'Arc, La (a.k.a "The Passion of Joan of Arc"). http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0019254/ Anyone who loves the art of film will love this movie and will never forget it. Bob -- Bob Friesenhahn bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/ GraphicsMagick Maintainer, http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/ From cedric.lejeune at workflowers.net Sun Mar 1 20:31:56 2009 From: cedric.lejeune at workflowers.net (Cedric Lejeune) Date: Sun, 01 Mar 2009 21:31:56 +0100 Subject: [Tig] Linux to Windows File Sharing In-Reply-To: <4dcf01fc0902280350x33e40d36u940536810c17dfe7@mail.gmail.com> References: <4dcf01fc0902280350x33e40d36u940536810c17dfe7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49AAF0BC.5080101@free.fr> Hi, you could use a NFS client on Windows side, but not sure it would help much. Depending on what you want to do and on the systems you have (Quantel, Filmlight, Autodesk, etc), most have developped their own way of optimizing transfers and sharing, but at the cost of standard communication viewable by all systems. Are you using GigE or anything else? Don't hesitate to contact me offlist. Cédric Lejeune www.workflowers.net pipelines&workflows La Madeleine, France From ilampooranan at gmail.com Mon Mar 2 05:51:12 2009 From: ilampooranan at gmail.com (ilampooranan) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2009 11:21:12 +0530 Subject: [Tig] Linux to Windows File Sharing In-Reply-To: <49AAF0BC.5080101@free.fr> References: <4dcf01fc0902280350x33e40d36u940536810c17dfe7@mail.gmail.com> <49AAF0BC.5080101@free.fr> Message-ID: <4dcf01fc0903012151x55c147d0xe9dd55613c8d3a8d@mail.gmail.com> Hi Mr.Cedric, Thanks for your valuable reply. ya we tried NFS Clinet on windows side. as you said it is not helping.( very slow) Actually scenario is Linux Server BONES ( Along with Spirit 4K) with NUCODA Film Master( Windows based). i hope you will provide us some clue. Regards, IP From jdhouston at earthlink.net Sun Mar 1 20:49:41 2009 From: jdhouston at earthlink.net (Jim Houston) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2009 12:49:41 -0800 Subject: [Tig] slightly OT (films). In-Reply-To: <200903011006_MC3-2-1D33-ACBD@compuserve.com> References: <200903011006_MC3-2-1D33-ACBD@compuserve.com> Message-ID: <01456627-02DD-4110-95CB-6FE9CB61384F@earthlink.net> On Mar 1, 2009, at 7:06 AM, peter_swinson wrote: > Bellville Rendezvous called "Triplets of Belleville" for the English release. Jim H From rob at colorist.org Mon Mar 2 07:56:16 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2009 09:56:16 +0200 Subject: [Tig] slightly OT (films). In-Reply-To: <090AABB6E4E8BD4D9E38C93EF065450501C3965E@exg01.davsys.com> References: <75C95250-FADF-465C-82B6-7524411B6CED@colorist.org> <090AABB6E4E8BD4D9E38C93EF065450501C3965E@exg01.davsys.com> Message-ID: the pre-Hays Code films are a treasure trove of wonder. Watched Baby Face yesterday and it's extraordinary. Queen Christina with Garbo.. watching B+W has a way of soothing a colorist's eyes. -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From mikko.kuutti at kava.fi Mon Mar 2 09:10:15 2009 From: mikko.kuutti at kava.fi (Mikko Kuutti) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2009 11:10:15 +0200 Subject: [Tig] Linux to Windows File Sharing In-Reply-To: <4dcf01fc0903012151x55c147d0xe9dd55613c8d3a8d@mail.gmail.com> References: <4dcf01fc0902280350x33e40d36u940536810c17dfe7@mail.gmail.com> <49AAF0BC.5080101@free.fr> <4dcf01fc0903012151x55c147d0xe9dd55613c8d3a8d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <691500B5-0A7E-4D9D-BA52-2D61742EB27E@kava.fi> Have you looked at sneakernet as a solution? If you don't need concurrent access from multiple hosts, physically carrying over the whole filesystem has an excellent price/performance ratio! Mikko Kuutti Deputy Director National Audiovisual Archive Pursimiehenkatu 29-31 A / P.O. Box 177, FI-00151 Helsinki, Finland tel. +358 9 6154 0254, mobile +358 40 900 0455 From rob at colorist.org Mon Mar 2 10:15:40 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2009 12:15:40 +0200 Subject: [Tig] new on tig classifieds Message-ID: <1423BB65-599C-4867-A61B-FA8B24577C89@colorist.org> at http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3/index.php/Classifieds as of today: Seeking Senior Colourist & Team Coordinator with experience in Digital Vision Filmmaster. Must be familiar with technical equipments and workflows (and IT systems if possible). As s/ he will coordinate a postproduction crew, team management skills are required. Excellent vendor relationship skills are necessary. Native or excellent English is a must, other languages, especially Spanish, a plus. Our contact: postprodvacancy at googlemail.com -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From somearsehole at hotmail.com Mon Mar 2 10:51:31 2009 From: somearsehole at hotmail.com (Matt W-J) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2009 10:51:31 +0000 Subject: [Tig] slightly OT (films). In-Reply-To: <090AABB6E4E8BD4D9E38C93EF065450501C3965E@exg01.davsys.com> References: <75C95250-FADF-465C-82B6-7524411B6CED@colorist.org> <090AABB6E4E8BD4D9E38C93EF065450501C3965E@exg01.davsys.com> Message-ID: I noticed 'Rififi' on this list - and feel it necessary to single it out and evangelically support its recommendation. It's amazing. Really really fantastic. Matt Willis-Jones Quantel eQ / Shake artist Oslo From bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us Mon Mar 2 17:09:19 2009 From: bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us (Bob Friesenhahn) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2009 11:09:19 -0600 (CST) Subject: [Tig] Linux to Windows File Sharing In-Reply-To: <4dcf01fc0902280350x33e40d36u940536810c17dfe7@mail.gmail.com> References: <4dcf01fc0902280350x33e40d36u940536810c17dfe7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 28 Feb 2009, ilampooranan wrote: > > We were aware that, SAMBA is very slower than FTP. We got one possibilities > that, Service for Unix (SFU) from Windows side. Speed wise it is same like > SAMBA Service. In my experience, Samba file transfer performance should not be noticeably slower than FTP. Both Samba (CIFS) and FTP rely on the same underlying transfer protocol (TCP). If your Samba server is much slower than FTP, then there is either something wrong with your Samba server, or the Windows client program. Some Windows client programs may request tiny amounts of data at a time rather than amounts large enough to be sufficient for Samba. If this is the case then try a different Windows client program. I am very impressed with the bulk transfer performace over gigabit ethernet between my Windows XP clients and my Samba/Unix servers. Bob -- Bob Friesenhahn bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/ GraphicsMagick Maintainer, http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/ From eron at estudiosmega.com.br Mon Mar 2 18:40:21 2009 From: eron at estudiosmega.com.br (Eron Cardoso) Date: Mon, 02 Mar 2009 15:40:21 -0300 Subject: [Tig] Linux to Windows File Sharing In-Reply-To: References: <4dcf01fc0902280350x33e40d36u940536810c17dfe7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49AC2815.50401@estudiosmega.com.br> > I am very impressed with the bulk transfer performace over gigabit > ethernet between my Windows XP clients and my Samba/Unix servers. > > Bob > I share the same experience. Ilam, how many files files in the directory you are trying to copy? Did you tune the tcp stack in linux and windows ? Regards, Eron From jdhouston at earthlink.net Mon Mar 2 20:23:40 2009 From: jdhouston at earthlink.net (Jim Houston) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2009 12:23:40 -0800 Subject: [Tig] Linux to Windows File Sharing In-Reply-To: <49AC2815.50401@estudiosmega.com.br> References: <4dcf01fc0902280350x33e40d36u940536810c17dfe7@mail.gmail.com> <49AC2815.50401@estudiosmega.com.br> Message-ID: <4C7C5B7D-850F-43C0-9466-0E1EF0B3AC16@earthlink.net> The abilty to set "Jumbo Frames" for IP on a dedicated Ethernet is getting pretty common and can help. Jim H Starwatcher Digital From fred at derf.nl Tue Mar 3 09:09:06 2009 From: fred at derf.nl (Friedrich Clausen) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2009 10:09:06 +0100 Subject: [Tig] Linux to Windows File Sharing In-Reply-To: <4C7C5B7D-850F-43C0-9466-0E1EF0B3AC16@earthlink.net> References: <4dcf01fc0902280350x33e40d36u940536810c17dfe7@mail.gmail.com> <49AC2815.50401@estudiosmega.com.br> <4C7C5B7D-850F-43C0-9466-0E1EF0B3AC16@earthlink.net> Message-ID: Hello, In addition to all the other tips, I would also look at the chapter on performance tuning in the Samba documentation - http://www.samba.org/samba/docs/man/Samba-HOWTO-Collection/speed.html finding performance problems is often quite a trial and error processes. For example, I would try: * I find that Mac OS X sometimes tries to make a "preview" of a movie file over the network and this causes major slowdown when listing files - try and switch to a finder view that does not make icon previews. * A windows machine to windows file transfer - maybe as someone mentioned, Windows itself is being slow at accessing the CIFS shares so, in this way, you can see if it continues when not using Samba. * Try and update the software - both the Samba server OS + Samba itself and the Windows clients. * Read the system logs on the Samba server in /var/log/samba/smbd.log (location may vary) and the per-client log files - there might be useful info there. Good luck! Fred. On Mon, Mar 2, 2009 at 9:23 PM, Jim Houston wrote: > 2077 subscribers as of February 2009 > Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG. > Cintel supports the TIG. > ==== > > > > The abilty to set "Jumbo Frames" for IP on a dedicated Ethernet is getting > pretty common and can help. > > Jim H > Starwatcher Digital > > > > _______________________________________________ > http://reels.colorist.org > http://www.colorist.org/wiki3 > From rayan.brooks at gmail.com Wed Mar 4 04:53:35 2009 From: rayan.brooks at gmail.com (david brooks) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2009 20:53:35 -0800 Subject: [Tig] Digital Film Restoration help... Message-ID: <967e22c00903032053j55ae59f7t7c8dee6b7a93d79f@mail.gmail.com> Hi, Few of my clients want to Restore & Archive their old movies. Can anybody suggest me what is the best way to do, process and best systems. If you can recommend any good restoration studios around the globe, who does good film restoration work, it would be great help. If possible please respond to my gmail. Rayan. Brooks. Line Producer. rayan.brooks at gmail.com From stipantim at yahoo.com Wed Mar 4 14:14:32 2009 From: stipantim at yahoo.com (Tim Stipan) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2009 06:14:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Tig] Digital Film Restoration help... In-Reply-To: <967e22c00903032053j55ae59f7t7c8dee6b7a93d79f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <738539.71736.qm@web56201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Cineric in New York specializes in digital restoration. Talk to Danny DeVincent. the number I have is: 212-586-4822 You can google Cineric to find out more details. Tim Stipan Di Colorist Technicolor NYC 212.609.9400 david brooks wrote: > 2077 subscribers as of February 2009 > Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG. > Cintel supports the TIG. > ==== > Hi, > Few of my clients want to Restore & Archive their old movies. > Can anybody suggest me what is the best way to do, process and best systems. > If you can recommend any good restoration studios around the globe, who does > good film restoration work, it would be great help. > If possible please respond to my gmail. > Rayan. Brooks. > Line Producer. > rayan.brooks at gmail.com > _______________________________________________ > http://reels.colorist.org > http://www.colorist.org/wiki3 From DANTELFAIR at aol.com Wed Mar 4 17:53:47 2009 From: DANTELFAIR at aol.com (DANTELFAIR at aol.com) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2009 12:53:47 EST Subject: [Tig] Jack Calaway passed this weekend Message-ID: Hi Ted: I just learned of Jack Calaway's passing, and found your web site. Jack was a member of our organization, the Nevil Shute Norway Foundation, a past member of our board, and our webmaster for several years. Unfortunately, he and I have not been in contact for some time. Could you please send me any details you have on the date and reason for his passing, surviving family members, and that sort of obit information. I would like to write an In Memoriam for our Foundation Newsletter. Thanks, Dan Telfair, Vice President The Nevil Shute Norway Foundation From rob at colorist.org Thu Mar 5 16:55:39 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2009 18:55:39 +0200 Subject: [Tig] 3-line VITC for NTSC Message-ID: <2DC83E5A-1892-4BF6-B9A8-E722393FDE89@colorist.org> in NTSC, could someone remind me which lines are 'standard' for 3-line VITC, for recording TC and Keycode (coming from the Aaton Keylink). Been in PAL-land for a while and want to confirm what I've been reading in other sources. thanks in advance. -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From mfw at musictrax.com Thu Mar 5 17:56:54 2009 From: mfw at musictrax.com (Marc Wielage) Date: Thu, 05 Mar 2009 09:56:54 -0800 Subject: [Tig] 3-line VITC for NTSC In-Reply-To: <2DC83E5A-1892-4BF6-B9A8-E722393FDE89@colorist.org> Message-ID: On 3/5/09 8:55 AM, "Rob Lingelbach" wrote: > in NTSC, could someone remind me which lines are 'standard' for 3-line > VITC, > for recording TC and Keycode (coming from the Aaton Keylink). >------------------------------------------------------------< As our chief engineer often reminds me, "we don't do NTSC. We do 525." The 3-line VITC standard we've always used for 525 is lines 17, 18, & 19. --Marc Wielage/Senior Colorist Technicolor Creative Services Hollywood, USA NOTE: The comments above are strictly mine, and may not necessarily represent those of my employers. From rob at colorist.org Thu Mar 5 18:30:12 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2009 20:30:12 +0200 Subject: [Tig] 3-line VITC for NTSC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8698F79F-7C28-4E36-9113-0EB04594AED2@colorist.org> aha. interesting, two others told me they use 14, 15, 16. I imagine there's some leeway. On Mar 5, 2009, at 7:56 PM, Marc Wielage wrote: > As our chief engineer often reminds me, "we don't do NTSC. We do > 525." > > The 3-line VITC standard we've always used for 525 is lines 17, 18, > & 19. -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From grahamcollett at visible-sprockets.co.uk Thu Mar 5 18:52:27 2009 From: grahamcollett at visible-sprockets.co.uk (Graham Collett) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2009 18:52:27 -0000 Subject: [Tig] 3-line VITC for NTSC In-Reply-To: <8698F79F-7C28-4E36-9113-0EB04594AED2@colorist.org> Message-ID: <60C0D5A55BBC4E2A9D441A79E48DBC6A@Sprocket> If you use 14,15,16 then you can still read the normal timecode of the tape(17/19) but have the flexibility of read other lines/other timecodes or keycodes made by the Keylink. Graham Collett Visible Sprockets Ltd www.visible-sprockets.co.uk Sprockets(telecine) Ltd www.sprockets-telecine.co.uk From BTopazio at company3.com Thu Mar 5 19:41:05 2009 From: BTopazio at company3.com (Bill Topazio) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2009 14:41:05 -0500 Subject: [Tig] 3-line VITC for NTSC In-Reply-To: <60C0D5A55BBC4E2A9D441A79E48DBC6A@Sprocket> References: <8698F79F-7C28-4E36-9113-0EB04594AED2@colorist.org> <60C0D5A55BBC4E2A9D441A79E48DBC6A@Sprocket> Message-ID: <8B0BA2808E4CEA47B36553F01A9EC63401EF2C31@harbor250ex2.corp.ad> US uses typically 14-15-16 or 16-17-18 for 525. Extremely rare to use others (intentionally). Some houses, such as HBO insist on one format. Readers should decode the first set of TC it sees. And since video TC is on the first line, that's usually not a problem. The 2nd line of regular VITC is a duplicate of the first and so is often ignored anyway. Similarly, 3-line VITC readers should decode the first valid set it finds. Just be careful when using 3-line VITC as the lines you select are in the Evertz or Aaton. If you have the VITC on in the VTR it will overwrite, or worse, if set to different lines, actually add a SECOND set of VITC. Poor practice. Safer to keep VITC OFF on the VTR side. This is usually not a problem unless you are switching standards a lot in which case you have to pay attention. You may have to select the 3 lines to work around some other VBI data function- we had at least one job that forced us to odd lines because some network logging data was encoded on one of the lines. This is rare, since by and large tapes never get to a network until they are finished masters, where 3-line VITC is no longer useful or even present, but it could happen. Bill Topazio Engineering COMPANY 3 / METHOD NEW YORK 545 Fifth Avenue, New York, NY 10017 212-687-4000 212-907-1225 direct 917-881-0172 cell 212-907-1270 fax www.company3.com / www.methodstudios.com From jpo at prestodigital.ca Thu Mar 5 19:41:07 2009 From: jpo at prestodigital.ca (Joe Owens) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2009 12:41:07 -0700 Subject: [Tig] 3-line VITC for NTSC In-Reply-To: <8698F79F-7C28-4E36-9113-0EB04594AED2@colorist.org> References: <8698F79F-7C28-4E36-9113-0EB04594AED2@colorist.org> Message-ID: <61864394-EE6F-4B61-AB94-DAE6AFD7BCC5@prestodigital.ca> According to some specs anywhere between 10-20 is within SMPTE. Some C-format versions did not record these lines.... so there was an argument as to whether they were actually legal or not.... Of course, these days, there are examples of formats that don't record vertical interval at all -- DV, for instance, so don't go looking for VITC with those... > > aha. interesting, two others told me they use 14, 15, 16. I > imagine there's some leeway. > >> As our chief engineer often reminds me, "we don't do NTSC. We do >> 525." That drives me crazy, too. So many APPLE applications (DVD"Pro") among others, uses NTSC as a shorthand for 2997, regardless of source format. Where the truth is, NTSC is only the composite YIQ version of 525, if I'm not deluded and hallucinating. PAL doesn't really exist up until transmission, either, I understand. Up to that point its still just 625 Y, R-Y, B-Y... or is this all a misapprehension? >> Joe Owens Presto!Digital Colourgrade 302-9664 106 Avenue Edmonton, Alberta T5H0N4 +1 780 421-9980 jpo at prestodigital.ca From jeff.booth at ntlworld.com Thu Mar 5 19:49:26 2009 From: jeff.booth at ntlworld.com (Jeff Booth) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2009 19:49:26 -0000 Subject: [Tig] 3-line VITC for NTSC In-Reply-To: <8698F79F-7C28-4E36-9113-0EB04594AED2@colorist.org> References: <8698F79F-7C28-4E36-9113-0EB04594AED2@colorist.org> Message-ID: <792CCD4C6A6F4B0A87FAC0FD674AD86D@desktop> In the UK, when making 525 recordings we use 14-16. 625 is 16-18 (VITC on 19, 21) If you use 17-19, don't you have to turn off the VITC insertion on the recorder? Jeff From rob at colorist.org Thu Mar 5 20:08:19 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2009 22:08:19 +0200 Subject: [Tig] 3-line VITC for NTSC In-Reply-To: <61864394-EE6F-4B61-AB94-DAE6AFD7BCC5@prestodigital.ca> References: <8698F79F-7C28-4E36-9113-0EB04594AED2@colorist.org> <61864394-EE6F-4B61-AB94-DAE6AFD7BCC5@prestodigital.ca> Message-ID: <2F352968-2117-4593-8690-515D606AD54A@colorist.org> >>> As our chief engineer often reminds me, "we don't do NTSC. We do >>> 525." > > That drives me crazy, too. So many APPLE applications (DVD"Pro") > among others, uses NTSC as a shorthand for 2997, regardless of > source format. > Where the truth is, NTSC is only the composite YIQ version of 525, > if I'm not deluded and hallucinating. PAL doesn't really exist up > until transmission, either, I understand. Up to that point its > still just 625 Y, R-Y, B-Y... but if you're only counting lines in considering nomenclature - "525" vs. "625" - aren't you missing a fairly important item: the frequency, or is that always implied? Rob -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From fred at cineric.com Thu Mar 5 20:35:09 2009 From: fred at cineric.com (Fred Mushel) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2009 15:35:09 -0500 Subject: [Tig] 3-line VITC for NTSC In-Reply-To: <61864394-EE6F-4B61-AB94-DAE6AFD7BCC5@prestodigital.ca> References: <8698F79F-7C28-4E36-9113-0EB04594AED2@colorist.org> <61864394-EE6F-4B61-AB94-DAE6AFD7BCC5@prestodigital.ca> Message-ID: On Mar 5, 2009, at 2:41 PM, Joe Owens wrote: > 2077 subscribers as of February 2009 > Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG. > Cintel supports the TIG. > ==== > > > According to some specs anywhere between 10-20 is within SMPTE. > Some C-format versions did not record these lines.... Yes, AMPEX VPR3 1" C VTR's didn't record VITC unless one purchased the VITC option. These vacuum capstan driven (pinch roller less) VTR's very accurately jogged or played tapes in slow-mo while maintaining proper linear track time code to tape frame sync. VITC was added to Sony 1" C VTR's because they couldn't maintain linear track time code to frame sync while playing in slo-mo or jogging, as they used rubber pinch rollers, as do all Sony VTR's. Fred Mushel Director of Engineering Cineric, Inc. 630 Ninth Avenue 5th Floor New York, NY 10036 212-586-4822 ext. 9401 (Main) 646-502-9401 (Direct) 212-586-2343 (Fax) fred at cineric.com From terry at finishedit.com Thu Mar 5 20:24:10 2009 From: terry at finishedit.com (Terry Lockhart) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2009 15:24:10 -0500 Subject: [Tig] Jumbo frames In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7B79C6E4-8C7D-4803-AABF-4E21425A0354@finishedit.com> Be careful with Jumbo frames. It only works if every device on the network is set to support them. If not, everything slows to a snails pace. We tried this for archiving out of eQ and found that unless the network was absolutely dedicated (including switches an hubs) to only the few machines using Jumbo, it was useless. So we are back to regular frames on the regular LAN, and only use Jumbo for a single point-to-point connection. -- Terry Lockhart Chief Engineer/IT manager Finish Editorial 162 Columbus Ave. Boston, Ma 02116-5222 direct/vm 617 850 6133 main 617 292 0082 or 850 6100 fax 617 292 0083 cel 617 775 3195 I'm beginning to understand myself. But it would have been great to be able to understand myself when I was 20 rather than when I was 82." --Dave Brubeck, American jazz pianist > On Mon, Mar 2, 2009 at 9:23 PM, Jim Houston > wrote: >> 2077 subscribers as of February 2009 >> Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG. >> Cintel supports the TIG. >> ==== >> >> >> >> The abilty to set "Jumbo Frames" for IP on a dedicated Ethernet is >> getting >> pretty common and can help. >> >> Jim H >> Starwatcher Digital >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> http://reels.colorist.org >> http://www.colorist.org/wiki3 >> > > From jpo at prestodigital.ca Thu Mar 5 20:47:26 2009 From: jpo at prestodigital.ca (Joe Owens) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2009 13:47:26 -0700 Subject: [Tig] 3-line VITC for NTSC In-Reply-To: <792CCD4C6A6F4B0A87FAC0FD674AD86D@desktop> References: <8698F79F-7C28-4E36-9113-0EB04594AED2@colorist.org> <792CCD4C6A6F4B0A87FAC0FD674AD86D@desktop> Message-ID: <9A17D166-92BC-420F-89E7-801DF1642CE8@prestodigital.ca> Correct. On 5-Mar-09, at 12:49 PM, Jeff Booth wrote: > If you use 17-19, don't you have to turn off the VITC insertion on the > recorder? Joe Owens Presto!Digital Colourgrade 302-9664 106 Avenue Edmonton, Alberta T5H0N4 +1 780 421-9980 jpo at prestodigital.ca From rob at colorist.org Fri Mar 6 10:13:38 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2009 12:13:38 +0200 Subject: [Tig] reinventing the flatbed scanner Message-ID: <9A7CAA8C-0615-4269-9E20-7E7DB6AD2E04@colorist.org> came across this new reinvention of a 16mm scanner. Homebrew. http://truetex.com/telecine.htm -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From underscan at gmail.com Thu Mar 5 21:34:20 2009 From: underscan at gmail.com (underscan at gmail.com) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2009 22:34:20 +0100 Subject: [Tig] colour decision list Message-ID: <358AB3C3-E4EB-457E-AE39-77CB7C3E5379@gmail.com> hi is Lustre the only app supporting CDLs? is anyone using CDLs in their workflow at all? what do you think is the future for CDLs? will it be a standard or is it already? cheerz mark -- underscan films | berlin From martin at filmlight.ltd.uk Fri Mar 6 10:41:23 2009 From: martin at filmlight.ltd.uk (Martin Tlaskal) Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2009 10:41:23 +0000 Subject: [Tig] colour decision list In-Reply-To: <358AB3C3-E4EB-457E-AE39-77CB7C3E5379@gmail.com> References: <358AB3C3-E4EB-457E-AE39-77CB7C3E5379@gmail.com> Message-ID: <23F02345-300D-43AD-AB42-293501CE6322@filmlight.ltd.uk> On 5 Mar 2009, at 21:34, underscan at gmail.com wrote: > is Lustre the only app supporting CDLs? > is anyone using CDLs in their workflow at all? > what do you think is the future for CDLs? will it be a standard or > is it already? Hi, Baselight supports reading CDL numbers from CMX edls. -Martin From cedric.lejeune at workflowers.net Fri Mar 6 10:56:44 2009 From: cedric.lejeune at workflowers.net (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?C=E9dric_Lejeune?=) Date: Fri, 06 Mar 2009 11:56:44 +0100 Subject: [Tig] colour decision list In-Reply-To: <358AB3C3-E4EB-457E-AE39-77CB7C3E5379@gmail.com> References: <358AB3C3-E4EB-457E-AE39-77CB7C3E5379@gmail.com> Message-ID: <49B1016C.7060707@free.fr> Hi, most of colour correctors support CDLs as info set in the EDL when conforming, input only. At Workflowers we have also developped a Lustre plugin to import and export CDL events so they can be used for VFX workflows and as a way to communicate btw DoP and colorist, the later could generate CDLs using 3cP or Speedgrade Onset and send that to the colorist. For VFX, you create your pre-comp look and send it with the original scan to the compositor, without having to render anything. This only works if people are looking at the same picture and using the same target in their colour calibration, which is a challenge, but the great thing about it is you separate the artistic input from the colour calibration, which is not possible using simple LUTs (at least using just one). That caught a lot of people in the past. I'm currently working on a project where we'll have colour consistency all across the production line (onset to mastering) but it's quite difficult to achieve considering the number of display technologies. Cedric Lejeune www.workflowers.net pipelines&workflows La Madeleine, France From ian_rosher at pandora-int.com Fri Mar 6 10:58:13 2009 From: ian_rosher at pandora-int.com (Ian Rosher) Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2009 10:58:13 +0000 Subject: [Tig] colour decision list In-Reply-To: <23F02345-300D-43AD-AB42-293501CE6322@filmlight.ltd.uk> References: <358AB3C3-E4EB-457E-AE39-77CB7C3E5379@gmail.com> <23F02345-300D-43AD-AB42-293501CE6322@filmlight.ltd.uk> Message-ID: Hello Revolution can read and write CDL values. Ian From d.i.colorist at mac.com Fri Mar 6 11:13:37 2009 From: d.i.colorist at mac.com (Darin Wooldridge) Date: Fri, 06 Mar 2009 03:13:37 -0800 Subject: [Tig] colour decision list In-Reply-To: <23F02345-300D-43AD-AB42-293501CE6322@filmlight.ltd.uk> References: <358AB3C3-E4EB-457E-AE39-77CB7C3E5379@gmail.com> <23F02345-300D-43AD-AB42-293501CE6322@filmlight.ltd.uk> Message-ID: da Vinci resolve also supports CDLs. Darin Wooldridge Colorist Technicolor Digital Intermediates 310-244-3600-main 818-653-3918-cell Darin.Wooldridge at thomson.net From cedric.lejeune at workflowers.net Fri Mar 6 11:43:45 2009 From: cedric.lejeune at workflowers.net (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?C=E9dric_Lejeune?=) Date: Fri, 06 Mar 2009 12:43:45 +0100 Subject: [Tig] colour decision list In-Reply-To: <49B1016C.7060707@free.fr> References: <358AB3C3-E4EB-457E-AE39-77CB7C3E5379@gmail.com> <49B1016C.7060707@free.fr> Message-ID: <49B10C71.9000302@free.fr> I should have said "most of software colour correctors" Autodesk Lustre Chrome Matrix DaVinci Resolve DigitalVision FilmMaster Filmlight Baselight Pogle Revolution They can also be read as events (1 xml file/shot) in compositing apps such as Autodesk Flame/Smoke Foudry Nuke (??) For the app that can write CDL events: Gamma&Density 3cP (not tested) Iridas SpeedGrade Onset (with no saturation) Pogle telecine Used to be Thomson (what is the new name?) Bones Avid allows to carry the CDL info across, but doesn't process it. The workflow is you grade your dailies and output a tape and the CDL info and can import it when you capture in Avid and then it can be exported as metadata in the output CMX. Still need to figure out how to adapt that to tapeless and to FCP, but I have a project coming to experiment. Please feel free complete the list, that would be great to have something up to date. Cedric Lejeune www.workflowers.net pipelines&workflows La Madeleine, France Cédric Lejeune a écrit : > Hi, > most of colour correctors support CDLs as info set in the EDL when > conforming, input only " From rob at cinelab.com Fri Mar 6 16:43:25 2009 From: rob at cinelab.com (Robert Houllahan) Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2009 11:43:25 -0500 Subject: [Tig] reinventing the flatbed scanner In-Reply-To: <9A7CAA8C-0615-4269-9E20-7E7DB6AD2E04@colorist.org> References: <9A7CAA8C-0615-4269-9E20-7E7DB6AD2E04@colorist.org> Message-ID: > came across this new reinvention of a 16mm scanner. Homebrew. Fifty feet an hour..... wow -Rob- Robert Houllahan rob at cinelab.com Filmmaker Vp Cinelab Inc. www.cinelab.com From bauz at arcor.de Fri Mar 6 17:16:34 2009 From: bauz at arcor.de (Michael Schneider) Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2009 18:16:34 +0100 Subject: [Tig] colour decision list References: <358AB3C3-E4EB-457E-AE39-77CB7C3E5379@gmail.com><23F02345-300D-43AD-AB42-293501CE6322@filmlight.ltd.uk> Message-ID: <002401c99e7f$4d13fac0$2201a8c0@Michael> Digital Film Technologies Bones and Bones Dailies supports ASC CDL. Michael Schneider Digital Film Technologies Weiterstadt Germany michael.schneider at dft-film.com www.dft-film.com From dtatut at chrome-imaging.com Fri Mar 6 17:35:47 2009 From: dtatut at chrome-imaging.com (dtatut at chrome-imaging.com) Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2009 18:35:47 +0100 Subject: [Tig] colour decision list In-Reply-To: <002401c99e7f$4d13fac0$2201a8c0@Michael> Message-ID: CHROME Imaging Matrix supports ASC CDLs for a few years now. I regret to say that very few people use it properly... Dan Dan Tatut Chief Executive Officer Chrome Imaging SA 1 Rue des Tuillieres CH-1196 Gland Switzerland Phone: +41 22 364 54 71 Fax: +41 22 807 23 70 WWW: http://www.chrome-imaging.com -----Message d'origine----- De : tig-bounces at colorist.org [mailto:tig-bounces at colorist.org] De la part de Michael Schneider Envoyé : vendredi, 6. mars 2009 18:17 À : tig Group Objet : Re: [Tig] colour decision list 2077 subscribers as of February 2009 Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG. Cintel supports the TIG. ==== Digital Film Technologies Bones and Bones Dailies supports ASC CDL. Michael Schneider Digital Film Technologies Weiterstadt Germany michael.schneider at dft-film.com www.dft-film.com _______________________________________________ http://reels.colorist.org http://www.colorist.org/wiki3 From Richard.Antley at DigitalVision.se Fri Mar 6 19:24:43 2009 From: Richard.Antley at DigitalVision.se (Richard Antley) Date: Fri, 06 Mar 2009 11:24:43 -0800 Subject: [Tig] colour decision list In-Reply-To: Message-ID: All right, I'll pile on . . . So does Digital Vision's Film Master line. And we are working on new ASC/CDL based on set and dailies workflows now . . . Regards, -- Richard Antley Sales Manager ­ Americas 4605 Lankershim Blvd., Suite 700 North Hollywood, CA 91602 USA http://www.digitalvision.se/ Office +1 818 769 8111 Mobile +1 818 294 1707 Richard.Antley at DigitalVision.se From rob at colorist.org Fri Mar 6 19:56:09 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2009 21:56:09 +0200 Subject: [Tig] detailed speed question PAL-24p Message-ID: here's the situation: Client is shooting in Eastern Europe. Camera speed 24fps. Dailies will be done by me on a 525/29.97 Spirit/DaVinci, outputting to Final Cut Pro in capture mode. Final grading and master will be done at 24p HD in LA. I output from DaVinci at 29.97 to FCP. I have two choices in FCP for rendering output to hard drive: 1) APPLE PRORES HQ 422 -> Custom Settings -> 24 fps 2) APPLE PRORES HQ 422 29.97 Since I'm not exactly sure what the 24fps codec is doing regarding adding or dropping frames, and because theoretically the client in LA can "de-telecine" (pull out the 2:3) from my 29.97 render, am I safer with the second option? many thanks in advance. -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From GWoodruff at cine-tal.com Fri Mar 6 20:13:59 2009 From: GWoodruff at cine-tal.com (Glenn Woodruff) Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2009 15:13:59 -0500 Subject: [Tig] colour decision list In-Reply-To: References: <002401c99e7f$4d13fac0$2201a8c0@Michael> Message-ID: <912618C6E573784C933A7858F1B3F39D9028EC@ROCK2000.AccessTech.loc> OK I'll join in too... Cine-tal's Cinemage monitor and eL1000 color processor support ASC CDLs and have done so for some time. Our Davio color processor will shortly, the feature is currently in internal beta. If you have a Davio and need this contact me off-list. Thanks, Glenn Woodruff Cine-tal Systems Inc. 8651 Castle Park Drive, Indianapolis IN, 46256 (317)576-0091 http://www.cine-tal.com From rob at colorist.org Fri Mar 6 21:00:35 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2009 23:00:35 +0200 Subject: [Tig] reinventing the flatbed scanner In-Reply-To: References: <9A7CAA8C-0615-4269-9E20-7E7DB6AD2E04@colorist.org> Message-ID: <6D4DE5BA-992B-48C7-9F95-B185250D1B3C@colorist.org> On Mar 6, 2009, at 6:43 PM, Robert Houllahan wrote: >> came across this new reinvention of a 16mm scanner. Homebrew. > > Fifty feet an hour..... wow right. investment: time a lot; money very little. possible dividends: who knows. -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From rob at colorist.org Fri Mar 6 22:05:11 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2009 00:05:11 +0200 Subject: [Tig] detailed speed question 24p from 29.97 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: One response I received, privately, said that I should run the telecine (Spirit) at 29.97, and then output in FCP at the second option below. Then the FCP (or Flame, Inferno, Avid, whatever) editor in L.A. can create the 24 fps from my FCP rendered file. This because otherwise. I can't guarantee the 2:3 because I'm not controlling, directly, FCP (Final Cut Pro). any comments? On Mar 6, 2009, at 9:56 PM, Rob Lingelbach wrote: > here's the situation: > > Client is shooting in Eastern Europe. Camera speed 24fps. Dailies > will be done by me on a 525/29.97 > Spirit/DaVinci, outputting to Final Cut Pro in capture mode. > > Final grading and master will be done at 24p HD in LA. > > I output from DaVinci at 29.97 to FCP. I have two choices in FCP > for rendering output to hard drive: > > 1) APPLE PRORES HQ 422 -> Custom Settings -> 24 fps > > 2) APPLE PRORES HQ 422 29.97 > > Since I'm not exactly sure what the 24fps codec is doing regarding > adding or dropping frames, > and because theoretically the client in LA can "de-telecine" (pull > out the 2:3) from my 29.97 > render, am I safer with the second option? > > many thanks in advance. > > -- > Rob Lingelbach > rob at colorist.org > > > > -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From ken at flight4.org Fri Mar 6 21:42:32 2009 From: ken at flight4.org (Ken Robinson) Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2009 19:42:32 -0200 Subject: [Tig] detailed speed question PAL-24p In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <005801c99ea4$78fcd330$6600a8c0@flight4> When someone answers Rob, could they clear up the 2:3 at 29.97, bit... I always thought that was a 24 artifact... ken robinson Argentina GSM: +54 9 2941 637570 -----Original Message----- From: tig-bounces at colorist.org [mailto:tig-bounces at colorist.org] On Behalf Of Rob Lingelbach Sent: Friday, March 06, 2009 17:56 Since I'm not exactly sure what the 24fps codec is doing regarding adding or dropping frames, and because theoretically the client in LA can "de-telecine" (pull out the 2:3) from my 29.97 render, am I safer with the second option? many thanks in advance. -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From rob at colorist.org Fri Mar 6 22:57:39 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2009 00:57:39 +0200 Subject: [Tig] detailed speed question PAL-24p In-Reply-To: <005801c99ea4$78fcd330$6600a8c0@flight4> References: <005801c99ea4$78fcd330$6600a8c0@flight4> Message-ID: <2199E979-C4E5-48D4-B544-E94C71BAC41D@colorist.org> On Mar 6, 2009, at 11:42 PM, Ken Robinson wrote: > When someone answers Rob, could they clear up the 2:3 at 29.97, > bit... I > always thought that was a 24 artifact... well it is, Ken. you're right. but realize that we're providing dailies at 29.97 1:1 (theoretically) and the eventual edit is at 1080/24p HD. and,... the sound has to be synched at 24 in FCP prior to rendering. FCP is capturing (theoretically) at 29.97. It's a conundrum that somebody has to have dealt with previously. The product, from the dailies house (me) is best done at 29.97 from FCP, so the edit house (in LA) can down-time it to 24 fps. -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From jpo at prestodigital.ca Fri Mar 6 23:03:24 2009 From: jpo at prestodigital.ca (Joe Owens) Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2009 16:03:24 -0700 Subject: [Tig] detailed speed question PAL-24p In-Reply-To: <2199E979-C4E5-48D4-B544-E94C71BAC41D@colorist.org> References: <005801c99ea4$78fcd330$6600a8c0@flight4> <2199E979-C4E5-48D4-B544-E94C71BAC41D@colorist.org> Message-ID: <3B8CD677-B43B-4CFD-8123-D6568070C6BE@prestodigital.ca> And all of this is because its being captured wild to FCP so we can't be sure of the A-frame -- so eliminate it and then go back down to native 23.98. That's the theory. On 6-Mar-09, at 3:57 PM, Rob Lingelbach wrote: > 2077 subscribers as of February 2009 > Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG. > Cintel supports the TIG. > ==== > > > > On Mar 6, 2009, at 11:42 PM, Ken Robinson wrote: > >> When someone answers Rob, could they clear up the 2:3 at 29.97, >> bit... I >> always thought that was a 24 artifact... > > well it is, Ken. you're right. but realize that we're providing > dailies at 29.97 > 1:1 (theoretically) and the eventual edit is at 1080/24p HD. > and,... the sound has to be > synched at 24 in FCP prior to rendering. FCP is capturing > (theoretically) at 29.97. It's a conundrum that > somebody has to have dealt with previously. The product, from the > dailies house (me) is best done at > 29.97 from FCP, so the edit house (in LA) can down-time it to 24 fps. > > -- > Rob Lingelbach > rob at colorist.org > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > http://reels.colorist.org > http://www.colorist.org/wiki3 Joe Owens Presto!Digital Colourgrade 302-9664 106 Avenue Edmonton, Alberta T5H0N4 +1 780 421-9980 jpo at prestodigital.ca From rob at colorist.org Fri Mar 6 23:06:57 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2009 01:06:57 +0200 Subject: [Tig] detailed speed question PAL-24p In-Reply-To: <3B8CD677-B43B-4CFD-8123-D6568070C6BE@prestodigital.ca> References: <005801c99ea4$78fcd330$6600a8c0@flight4> <2199E979-C4E5-48D4-B544-E94C71BAC41D@colorist.org> <3B8CD677-B43B-4CFD-8123-D6568070C6BE@prestodigital.ca> Message-ID: On Mar 7, 2009, at 1:03 AM, Joe Owens wrote: > And all of this is because its being captured wild to FCP so we > can't be sure of the A-frame -- so eliminate it and then go back > down to native 23.98. That's the theory. that's the theory. but I can't control FCP via the DaVinci/TLC and I'm in PAL-land, where I don't have access to an NTSC recorder. have to capture direct to FCP in "wild" mode. -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From aranysh at mac.com Sat Mar 7 09:00:26 2009 From: aranysh at mac.com (Michael Aranyshev) Date: Sat, 07 Mar 2009 15:00:26 +0600 Subject: [Tig] detailed speed question PAL-24p In-Reply-To: References: <005801c99ea4$78fcd330$6600a8c0@flight4> <2199E979-C4E5-48D4-B544-E94C71BAC41D@colorist.org> <3B8CD677-B43B-4CFD-8123-D6568070C6BE@prestodigital.ca> Message-ID: <43020D0B-3DA7-459D-95DA-62212E541FA0@mac.com> Another option is to run film at 29.97 and use "Conform" instead of "Reverse telecine" in Cinema Tools. Since you have FCP at you facility you can make a test. I never did 29.97 to 23.98 conform in Cinema Tools but I did 50 to 25 successfully and I routinely do 25 to 24 of course. From rob at colorist.org Sat Mar 7 09:25:07 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2009 11:25:07 +0200 Subject: [Tig] detailed speed question PAL-24p In-Reply-To: <43020D0B-3DA7-459D-95DA-62212E541FA0@mac.com> References: <005801c99ea4$78fcd330$6600a8c0@flight4> <2199E979-C4E5-48D4-B544-E94C71BAC41D@colorist.org> <3B8CD677-B43B-4CFD-8123-D6568070C6BE@prestodigital.ca> <43020D0B-3DA7-459D-95DA-62212E541FA0@mac.com> Message-ID: <2D15ADA8-9583-424D-85FC-A7705D04DD6D@colorist.org> On Mar 7, 2009, at 11:00 AM, Michael Aranyshev wrote: > Another option is to run film at 29.97 and use "Conform" instead of > "Reverse telecine" in Cinema Tools. Since you have FCP at you > facility you can make a test. I never did 29.97 to 23.98 conform in > Cinema Tools but I did 50 to 25 successfully and I routinely do 25 > to 24 of course. right; thanks Michael. because there's sync audio and camera rate is 24, it introduces YAV (yet another variable). Joe Owens has been ruminating with me about the flow and also suggested 29.97 telecine xfer. But I think I've come up with a way to control 2:3 by using DVS Clipstation driven by the DaVinci, and then controlling the DVS from FCP, so a 23.98 xfer, which therefore doesn't complicate syncing audio in FCP, might be the best option. Rob -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From aranysh at mac.com Sat Mar 7 10:05:21 2009 From: aranysh at mac.com (Michael Aranyshev) Date: Sat, 07 Mar 2009 16:05:21 +0600 Subject: [Tig] detailed speed question PAL-24p In-Reply-To: <2D15ADA8-9583-424D-85FC-A7705D04DD6D@colorist.org> References: <005801c99ea4$78fcd330$6600a8c0@flight4> <2199E979-C4E5-48D4-B544-E94C71BAC41D@colorist.org> <3B8CD677-B43B-4CFD-8123-D6568070C6BE@prestodigital.ca> <43020D0B-3DA7-459D-95DA-62212E541FA0@mac.com> <2D15ADA8-9583-424D-85FC-A7705D04DD6D@colorist.org> Message-ID: > because there's sync audio and camera rate is 24, it introduces YAV > (yet another variable) Not really a variable. FCP doesn't care much about TC in audio. It cares about sample rate and duration. So production sound and 23.98 picture will be slightly out of sync no matter how you came to this frame rate - via adding/removing "ghost" fields or restamping QT files. From blumediaprojekt at nerdshack.com Sat Mar 7 11:16:43 2009 From: blumediaprojekt at nerdshack.com (R. Adam Berk) Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2009 03:16:43 -0800 Subject: [Tig] colour decision list In-Reply-To: <358AB3C3-E4EB-457E-AE39-77CB7C3E5379@gmail.com> References: <358AB3C3-E4EB-457E-AE39-77CB7C3E5379@gmail.com> Message-ID: <65C74888-D46D-43DC-99CA-E919369209C3@nerdshack.com> The new Flame has a CDL import spark. Adam Berk Creative Technology Smoke/Flame artist and C>me development team T. +13303103950 E. adam.berk at creativetechnology.com From jimack at ix.netcom.com Sat Mar 7 17:05:52 2009 From: jimack at ix.netcom.com (Jim MacKrell) Date: Sat, 07 Mar 2009 12:05:52 -0500 Subject: [Tig] colour decision list In-Reply-To: <358AB3C3-E4EB-457E-AE39-77CB7C3E5379@gmail.com> References: <358AB3C3-E4EB-457E-AE39-77CB7C3E5379@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hello da Vinci 2k supports ASC_CDL import for notes, collections and, with ColorTrace, the CDL EDL format. daVinci Resolve supports ASC CDL import and export (with V6.2). Jim MacKrell daVinci Systems From lawrence.towers at nyu.edu Sat Mar 7 17:08:06 2009 From: lawrence.towers at nyu.edu (Lawrence Towers) Date: Sat, 07 Mar 2009 12:08:06 -0500 Subject: [Tig] FCP txfer 29.97 etc In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I am not sure of the question. Are you saying you will run the transfer @ 29.97 fps or just delivering 29.97 using the standard 2:3 pulldown? If you will be running the Txfr @ 29.97 it would be best to use Cinema tools to conform to 23.98 (there is no 23.97 option). ---Larry Towers Technical Supervisor TSOA Film/TV New York University 212-998-1694 From ken at flight4.org Sat Mar 7 16:39:48 2009 From: ken at flight4.org (Ken Robinson) Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2009 14:39:48 -0200 Subject: [Tig] FCP txfer 29.97 etc In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <002d01c99f43$589959c0$6600a8c0@flight4> Again I ask.... 2:3 pull down at 29.97??? Shumshing wrong here... 2:3 is to make up the lack of fileds / frames at 24 fps going to 29.97 29.97 should be 2 fld per frame. Or am I really lost in the deep south? ken robinson From rob at colorist.org Sat Mar 7 18:19:50 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2009 20:19:50 +0200 Subject: [Tig] FCP txfer 29.97 etc In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <761EFA2D-8B77-4292-8CAF-CFF79AEF9ECA@colorist.org> On Mar 7, 2009, at 7:08 PM, Lawrence Towers wrote: > I am not sure of the question. Are you saying you will run the > transfer @ 29.97 fps or just delivering 29.97 using the standard 2:3 > pulldown? If you will be running the Txfr @ 29.97 it would be best > to use Cinema tools to conform to 23.98 (there is no 23.97 option). Hi Larry, all is solved, and if I wrote 23.97 it was out of fatigue, i know it's 23.98 :) thanks to all who responded, esp. Joe Owens and Michael Aranyshev. am providing 29.97 deck speed and video in NTSC and the client can do the 24 conversion from the files. Rob -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From rob at colorist.org Sat Mar 7 18:48:58 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2009 20:48:58 +0200 Subject: [Tig] FCP txfer 29.97 etc In-Reply-To: <002d01c99f43$589959c0$6600a8c0@flight4> References: <002d01c99f43$589959c0$6600a8c0@flight4> Message-ID: <0482C88C-D586-4980-8201-DF1E7599554A@colorist.org> On Mar 7, 2009, at 6:39 PM, Ken Robinson wrote: > Again I ask.... 2:3 pull down at 29.97??? > Shumshing wrong here... 29.97 video frame rate with TK running at 23.98. (as opposed to video frame rate of 24p and some other TK transport rate) but all is solved for the original question by running the TK at 29.97 and letting client convert to 24. it's enormous fun to step out of 625/50 for a few days every year. (: -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From jpo at prestodigital.ca Sat Mar 7 19:03:01 2009 From: jpo at prestodigital.ca (Joe Owens) Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2009 12:03:01 -0700 Subject: [Tig] FCP txfer 29.97 etc In-Reply-To: <0482C88C-D586-4980-8201-DF1E7599554A@colorist.org> References: <002d01c99f43$589959c0$6600a8c0@flight4> <0482C88C-D586-4980-8201-DF1E7599554A@colorist.org> Message-ID: Glad this is sorting out. 2:3 cadence, in its now several forms, is really getting to be a headache, esp with the video cameras now producing a form of it. I'm so glad I had all those years in telecine. Its not such a huge mystery if you deal with it on a day- to-day basis. Just an observation on the terminology.... we all talk about this thing called "3:2 pulldown"... but its kind of misdirected IMHO ( ;-) ) The 3:2 part is just a redundant field-cadence injection... but the "pulldown" part is the real "pull down", being a speed pull from 24.000 to 23.976 ... and when you turn that around to a filmout which of necessity goes back to being actual 24 fps.... it gets "pulled" back up... which necessitates a sound "pull-up" as well, if your finals were synced to the pulldown. On 7-Mar-09, at 11:48 AM, Rob Lingelbach wrote: > 2203 subscribers as of March 2009 > Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG. > Cintel supports the TIG. > ==== > > > > On Mar 7, 2009, at 6:39 PM, Ken Robinson wrote: > >> Again I ask.... 2:3 pull down at 29.97??? >> Shumshing wrong here... > > 29.97 video frame rate with TK running at 23.98. > (as opposed to video frame rate of 24p and some other TK transport > rate) > > but all is solved for the original question by running the TK at > 29.97 and letting > client convert to 24. > > it's enormous fun to step out of 625/50 for a few days every > year. (: > > > -- > Rob Lingelbach > rob at colorist.org > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > http://reels.colorist.org > http://www.colorist.org/wiki3 Joe Owens Presto!Digital Colourgrade 302-9664 106 Avenue Edmonton, Alberta T5H0N4 +1 780 421-9980 jpo at prestodigital.ca From ken at flight4.org Sat Mar 7 18:50:22 2009 From: ken at flight4.org (Ken Robinson) Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2009 16:50:22 -0200 Subject: [Tig] FCP txfer 29.97 etc In-Reply-To: <84499227-1236452072-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1578874919-@bxe1276.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> References: <84499227-1236452072-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1578874919-@bxe1276.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Message-ID: <004a01c99f55$971dd100$6600a8c0@flight4> Now I understand... All to do with semantics and leaving the details out... haha And bye bye to Big Boy (on your blackberry), whoever you are!!! ken robinson Argentina GSM: +54 9 2941 637570 -----Original Message----- From: bigboy at seducedandexploited.com [mailto:bigboy at seducedandexploited.com] Please unsubscribe me. Thank you. From rob at colorist.org Sat Mar 7 20:55:31 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2009 22:55:31 +0200 Subject: [Tig] FCP txfer 29.97 etc In-Reply-To: References: <002d01c99f43$589959c0$6600a8c0@flight4> <0482C88C-D586-4980-8201-DF1E7599554A@colorist.org> Message-ID: <77B3717E-C85E-48FA-9DBB-492B287C2805@colorist.org> On Mar 7, 2009, at 9:03 PM, Joe Owens wrote: > Just an observation on the terminology.... we all talk about this > thing called "3:2 pulldown"... the more common expression puts the 3 before the 2; I always thought it better to put the 2 before the 3, because usually you want to "start" with an A frame, which is a 2. So I stubbornly have stuck to 2:3. Your cogent explanation of the apparent non sequitur is quite interesting. -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From ilampooranan at gmail.com Sun Mar 8 11:18:58 2009 From: ilampooranan at gmail.com (ilampooranan) Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2009 16:48:58 +0530 Subject: [Tig] Linux to Windows File Sharing In-Reply-To: <4dcf01fc0903030506t784917eatb37e82393fde1959@mail.gmail.com> References: <4dcf01fc0902280350x33e40d36u940536810c17dfe7@mail.gmail.com> <49AC2815.50401@estudiosmega.com.br> <4dcf01fc0903030506t784917eatb37e82393fde1959@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4dcf01fc0903080418k7475a34ej62436770747897b8@mail.gmail.com> Hi Mr.Bob / Mr.Eron / Tig Experts, Ya our problem solved with samba. it is working fine. Thanks for your valuable replies. Regards, IP India. From jfmann at optimum.net Mon Mar 9 16:58:39 2009 From: jfmann at optimum.net (Jim Mann) Date: Mon, 09 Mar 2009 12:58:39 -0400 Subject: [Tig] Calendar event added Message-ID: <000001c9a0d8$4bdb4090$e391c1b0$@net> http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3/index.php/Calendars:TIG_main March 11th SMPTE event added. (New York) Jim Mann Colorist/daVinci Product Specialist [ POSTWORKS ] NEW YORK 100 Avenue of Americas, 10th Floor New York, NY 10013 T 212 894 4000 C 516-250-0909 F 212 941 0439 http://www.postworks.com http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3/index.php/User:Jim_Mann Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail. From rcurrier at synthetic-ap.com Mon Mar 9 17:28:21 2009 From: rcurrier at synthetic-ap.com (Bob Currier) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2009 09:28:21 -0800 Subject: [Tig] colour decision list In-Reply-To: <358AB3C3-E4EB-457E-AE39-77CB7C3E5379@gmail.com> References: <358AB3C3-E4EB-457E-AE39-77CB7C3E5379@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20090309172821.1906097681@smarthost.coxmail.com> Color Finesse 2 supports ASC CDL files, both reading and writing. And wearing my other hat, 3cP also supports reading and writing ASC CDL files, and exporting ASC CDL data in ALE files. Both products have been used to generate CDLs that have been imported into da Vinci Resolve and 2K+ systems. But I'll echo a previous comment and say that CDLs only work as well as the people using them understand their limitations (and power). ----- Bob Currier rcurrier at synthetic-ap.com Synthetic Aperture voice: +1 949 493-3444 Helping Make Your Work Look Its Best fax: +1 949 203-2108 web: www.synthetic-ap.com From rob at colorist.org Mon Mar 9 19:28:35 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2009 21:28:35 +0200 Subject: [Tig] NAB 2009 participants Message-ID: <40A3870B-FF81-4AC3-8721-35EEDD3519E7@colorist.org> we have the following participants in the TIGNABFS09 Focus Sheet at http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3/index.php/TIGNABFS09 Digital Vision FilmLight Flanders Scientific Cintel any other vendor/manufacturers who would like to be included, please contact me personally at rob at colorist.org thank you in advance. -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From cedric.lejeune at workflowers.net Mon Mar 9 21:05:56 2009 From: cedric.lejeune at workflowers.net (Cedric Lejeune) Date: Mon, 09 Mar 2009 22:05:56 +0100 Subject: [Tig] colour decision list In-Reply-To: <20090309172821.1906097681@smarthost.coxmail.com> References: <358AB3C3-E4EB-457E-AE39-77CB7C3E5379@gmail.com> <20090309172821.1906097681@smarthost.coxmail.com> Message-ID: <49B584B4.6020305@free.fr> Hi Bob, what about saturation support in both 3cP and Color Finesse? (question runs for other systems, since a lot have waited for the ASC to agree on the algorithm to use for saturation). Thanks, Cedric Lejeune www.workflowers.net pipelines&workflows La Madeleine, France From carl at stopp.se Mon Mar 9 22:59:44 2009 From: carl at stopp.se (Carl Skaff) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2009 23:59:44 +0100 Subject: [Tig] NTSC 3:2 bla bla bla Message-ID: Hey Isn't there a smart guy out there that could explain the 24/30, 23,97/29,98 issue in a way all us PAL people can understand. Maybe make a youtube clip out of it like this: http://vimeo.com/3261363 That whole thing just makes me happy to live in pal-land were broadcasted interlased is about the same as progressive. /carl Carl Skaff _____________________ Head of Telecine Stockholm Postproduction www.stopp.se phone: +46 8 50 70 35 00 fax: +46 8 32 77 22 From rcurrier at synthetic-ap.com Mon Mar 9 22:43:27 2009 From: rcurrier at synthetic-ap.com (Bob Currier) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2009 14:43:27 -0800 Subject: [Tig] colour decision list In-Reply-To: <49B584B4.6020305@free.fr> References: <358AB3C3-E4EB-457E-AE39-77CB7C3E5379@gmail.com> <20090309172821.1906097681@smarthost.coxmail.com> <49B584B4.6020305@free.fr> Message-ID: <20090309224327.1643731694@smarthost.coxmail.com> Yes, saturation is supported in both Color Finesse and 3cP. It's not in the standard, but I believe most everyone is using a saturation control based on 709 primaries and luma. ----- Bob Currier rcurrier at synthetic-ap.com Synthetic Aperture voice: +1 949 493-3444 Helping Make Your Work Look Its Best fax: +1 949 203-2108 web: www.synthetic-ap.com On Mon, Mar 9, 2009 1:05 PM, Cedric Lejeune wrote: >Hi Bob, >what about saturation support in both 3cP and Color Finesse? >(question runs for other systems, since a lot have waited for the ASC to >agree on the algorithm to use for saturation). From rob at cinelab.com Tue Mar 10 01:00:23 2009 From: rob at cinelab.com (Robert Houllahan) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2009 21:00:23 -0400 Subject: [Tig] Digital Deflection battery? Message-ID: <053BE3FC-86AF-4E6D-9AE0-3CA73D261C31@cinelab.com> HI Is there a rom backup battery in the Digital Deflection system? ours does not want to save settings after power off.. -Rob- Robert Houllahan rob at cinelab.com Filmmaker Vp Cinelab Inc. www.cinelab.com From cedric.lejeune at workflowers.net Tue Mar 10 10:49:01 2009 From: cedric.lejeune at workflowers.net (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?C=E9dric_Lejeune?=) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 11:49:01 +0100 Subject: [Tig] colour decision list In-Reply-To: <20090309224327.1643731694@smarthost.coxmail.com> References: <358AB3C3-E4EB-457E-AE39-77CB7C3E5379@gmail.com> <20090309172821.1906097681@smarthost.coxmail.com> <49B584B4.6020305@free.fr> <20090309224327.1643731694@smarthost.coxmail.com> Message-ID: <49B6459D.3080002@free.fr> OK, but the pb as I understand it is saturation won't be in since it's a 3D process. Today I haven't found much way to deal with a CDL workflow including the saturation parameter and we have a project here where it's key in the story telling, even if it's a kind of dangerous parameter. Saturation is indeed in the standard and based on the Rec709 weightings. Thanks again, Cedric Lejeune www.workflowers.net pipelines&workflows Bruxelles, Belgium for today From ken at flight4.org Tue Mar 10 10:39:50 2009 From: ken at flight4.org (Ken Robinson) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 08:39:50 -0200 Subject: [Tig] NTSC 3:2 bla bla bla In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00dd01c9a16c$8eb4e710$6600a8c0@flight4> Sorry Carl, but isnt 23,97 and 24 almost the same? Its just a question of counting on your fingers.... ;-) Making up space on the tape for missing frames when the telecine is running at 24 or 23.97 and the tape at 29.98... Instead of random fields being placed anywhere... err like when you do vari speed, NTSC has a way of placing extra fields in places where you know you can find them! The fun and games really start when you have to do keycode! This is where that little dot on the keycode number comes in so handy... and which, for quite sometime was ignored in many places in PAL land... or they didn't have glasses strong enough to see it... or thought it was a piece or recurring dirt! If I explain anymore, I will get a headache... ken robinson Argentina GSM: +54 9 2941 637570 -----Original Message----- From: tig-bounces at colorist.org [mailto:tig-bounces at colorist.org] On Behalf Of Carl Skaff Sent: Monday, March 09, 2009 21:00 To: tig at colorist.org Subject: [Tig] NTSC 3:2 bla bla bla 2203 subscribers as of March 2009 Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG. Cintel supports the TIG. ==== Hey Isn't there a smart guy out there that could explain the 24/30, 23,97/29,98 issue in a way all us PAL people can understand. Maybe make a youtube clip out of it like this: http://vimeo.com/3261363 From jack at surrealroad.com Tue Mar 10 12:13:14 2009 From: jack at surrealroad.com (Jack James) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 12:13:14 +0000 Subject: [Tig] colour decision list In-Reply-To: <49B6459D.3080002@free.fr> References: <358AB3C3-E4EB-457E-AE39-77CB7C3E5379@gmail.com> <20090309172821.1906097681@smarthost.coxmail.com> <49B584B4.6020305@free.fr> <20090309224327.1643731694@smarthost.coxmail.com> <49B6459D.3080002@free.fr> Message-ID: After reading through the dozen or so emails on this, I think it's safe to say that most applications support CDL. But I think the most interesting point here still has not been addressed: does anyone --outside of a lab or vendor-- actually use them? And if so, how? CDLs were supposed to revolutionise post-production, but I've heard of very few instances where this is the case... Love to hear some user storues of CDLs in action. Jack -- Surreal Road Emmunicate Insatiably... www.surrealroad.com Please recycle this email to prevent excess bytes clogging up the internet From dtatut at chrome-imaging.com Tue Mar 10 13:40:10 2009 From: dtatut at chrome-imaging.com (dtatut at chrome-imaging.com) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 14:40:10 +0100 Subject: [Tig] colour decision list In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Jack, The ASC CDLs were defined by a bunch of people in Hollywood Heaven. Outside this area and besides geeks and techies nobody even knows about ASC CDLs. Saying the opposite is a big lie. Again, education, communication, etc... Dan Dan Tatut Chief Executive Officer Chrome Imaging SA 1 Rue des Tuillieres CH-1196 Gland Switzerland Phone: +41 22 364 54 71 Fax: +41 22 807 23 70 WWW: http://www.chrome-imaging.com From frank at opticalart.de Tue Mar 10 14:41:06 2009 From: frank at opticalart.de (Frank Hellmann) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 15:41:06 +0100 Subject: [Tig] colour decision list In-Reply-To: References: <358AB3C3-E4EB-457E-AE39-77CB7C3E5379@gmail.com> <20090309172821.1906097681@smarthost.coxmail.com> <49B584B4.6020305@free.fr> <20090309224327.1643731694@smarthost.coxmail.com> <49B6459D.3080002@free.fr> Message-ID: <49B67C02.6020006@opticalart.de> Hi, I hope a reason why we as a mostly film-based post-house are not using them is also OK. In my humble opinion CDLs are useful in digital or video based productions, because then you'll have common ground to start from. For example, a DoP of a video shoot can adjust or pregrade a shot on-set with the video signal available there and this signal will pretty much be the same that a colorist starts from. If you then apply this in editing and even start pregrade certain scenes there, this being exported towards the grading suites, might work quiet nicely. If you consider film based productions, you'll never know if the viewfinder/video output taken from the film camera has anything to do with whats recorded on the negative. Therefore any grading decision done on-set or in editing with this video will not be that easily applied back to the original negative, as you have two different medias and starting points. Some one might argue, that if you use certain vendors calibrated telecine workflows this drawback of film can be compensated, but honestly I wouldn't rely on this to be anything close. Also, if you start out with a telecined negative for editing and you will go back to scan this on a different scanner the CDLs won't necessarily match again. But, I think the biggest drawback is, that these decisions are done under a lot of time pressure. The DoP usually doesn't have time to sit back on a set to do some pre-grading. The editor needs to get the story right and not the look. So most of the time I find the Look-Books (is there an official term for that?) that a DoP does by just taking some digital stills and giving them a look at his hotel suite later on more useful to abstract what he wants. As I said, just my humble opinion... Best, Frank... ----------------------------------------------------------------------- OPTICAL ART Film & Special-Effects GmbH Waterloohain 6-8 Frank Hellmann DI Supervisor 22769 Hamburg frank at opticalart.de http://www.opticalart.de Tel: +49 40 5111051 Fax: +49 40 43169499 From cedric.lejeune at workflowers.net Tue Mar 10 15:13:12 2009 From: cedric.lejeune at workflowers.net (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?C=E9dric_Lejeune?=) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 16:13:12 +0100 Subject: [Tig] colour decision list In-Reply-To: <20090310134341.D12B64A366F@gunther.lixium.fr> References: <20090310134341.D12B64A366F@gunther.lixium.fr> Message-ID: <49B68388.6080507@free.fr> I wouldn't be as categoric as my friend Dan, but indeed the CDL stuff is quite new to a lot of people and push The same way DI has pushed postproduction and labs to communicate better and set deterministic ways to work, the CDL should have the same effect btw shooting and post, but in the process will reveal the potential lack of understanding on both side. I also has a great potential between VFX and DI (the main purpose of our plugin). Still an implementation is far from obvious in production as it involves making communicate people who have very different views and skills. Then the way it's implemented in tools makes some holes sometimes difficult to bridge, as in my current project the lack of support for Saturation parameter along the path. There are also a lot of opportunities to mess up the whole thing, since the CDL processing is in the middle of a chain not necessarily well documented; what happens to the picture before it gets into the colour correction (debayer, pre conversion) and after (film print emulation, calibration to display, conversion...). Still a lot better than simple LUTs, but requires a lot more thinking for a whole project than what people are used to at every step. That and the general misnaming and misusing of Log and Lin in tools makes it even more complex to communicate. But I'm pretty sure it can work :D We are still far away from having any post house to deal properly with Cineon-like files, and with the new cameras and their different log-ness it's just a flood now of different formats that need to be understood and processed, far from WYSIWYG. Lie? No, reality enhancement, but aint that what the job is about? ;-) Cedric Lejeune www.workflowers.net pipelines&workflows Bruxelles, Belgique From jfmann at optimum.net Tue Mar 10 15:29:43 2009 From: jfmann at optimum.net (Jim Mann) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 11:29:43 -0400 Subject: [Tig] Cal_event-Media Career Opportunities in Challenging Times Message-ID: <004b01c9a195$0972fe60$1c58fb20$@net> March 14 event added (At NYU) Now complete with a Google map! See: http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3/index.php/Calendars:TIG_main Jim Mann Colorist/daVinci Product Specialist [ POSTWORKS ] NEW YORK 100 Avenue of Americas, 10th Floor New York, NY 10013 T 212 894 4000 C 516-250-0909 F 212 941 0439 http://www.postworks.com http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3/index.php/User:Jim_Mann Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail. From jfmann at optimum.net Tue Mar 10 17:21:16 2009 From: jfmann at optimum.net (Jim Mann) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 13:21:16 -0400 Subject: [Tig] daVinci 2K counter shortcut added In-Reply-To: <49B68388.6080507@free.fr> References: <20090310134341.D12B64A366F@gunther.lixium.fr> <49B68388.6080507@free.fr> Message-ID: <006a01c9a1a4$9f139920$dd3acb60$@net> http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3/index.php/Set_Counter_Shortcut_for_the_daVinci_2KPLUS Tidbit for a quick way to set your daVinci 2K counter. Jim Mann Colorist/daVinci Product Specialist [ POSTWORKS ] NEW YORK 100 Avenue of Americas, 10th Floor New York, NY 10013 T 212 894 4000 C 516-250-0909 F 212 941 0439 http://www.postworks.com http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3/index.php/User:Jim_Mann Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail. From turnto at sbcglobal.net Tue Mar 10 17:43:18 2009 From: turnto at sbcglobal.net (David Keleshian) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 10:43:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tig] "Type B" Bosch video recorder References: Message-ID: <946923.37016.qm@web83906.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Hello Everyone I was wondering if anyone knows where I can fine some of these machines. Does anyone have some lurking in the shadows of the attic somewhere? NTSC or PAL? Thanks Dave Keleshian CBS TVC From delaneydoug at gmail.com Tue Mar 10 18:03:12 2009 From: delaneydoug at gmail.com (Doug Delaney) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 11:03:12 -0700 Subject: [Tig] colour decision list Message-ID: <78de4d3a0903101103y63b35264l86d43b6185f80745@mail.gmail.com> Cedric said: > > It also has a great potential between VFX and DI (the main purpose of our > plugin). Totally agree. We've used the CDL export function of the Baselight on a number occasions to communicate with VFX folks. And we're currently using it for distributing grading information on 5.5k IMAX plates with the VFX vendor... as opposed to rendering out graded plates and moving tons o' data. Doug Delaney colorist Post Logic/LA From bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us Tue Mar 10 23:08:55 2009 From: bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us (Bob Friesenhahn) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 18:08:55 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [Tig] colour decision list In-Reply-To: <200903101513.n2AFDMG4026512@blade.simplesystems.org> References: <200903101513.n2AFDMG4026512@blade.simplesystems.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 10 Mar 2009, dtatut at chrome-imaging.com wrote: > > The ASC CDLs were defined by a bunch of people in Hollywood Heaven. Outside > this area and besides geeks and techies nobody even knows about ASC CDLs. > Saying the opposite is a big lie. Isn't the ASC CDL definition a sort of trade secret? Bob -- Bob Friesenhahn bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/ GraphicsMagick Maintainer, http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/ From dvhitman at hotmail.com Tue Mar 10 18:27:40 2009 From: dvhitman at hotmail.com (Justin Lovell) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 14:27:40 -0400 Subject: [Tig] Color Finesse vs Speedgrade XR? References: Message-ID: Just curious if anyone out there has any practical experience with the two applications and could give forth a recommendation on one system over another. My noticeable differences are: Price (CF cheaper, and has a well priced panel) Rendering ( CF Batch render options using AEffects) (XR- background rendering, can continue to grade while rendering) Video Cards (CF -friendly with almost any system) (XR recommends/requires the Nvidia 5600 for SDI out, and also puts all processing through this card rather than the CPU's processors) Scopes (CF has some nice internal scopes built in) (XR- RGB parade and histogram, kind of small on screen, not that useful - might be getting upgraded on future releases- though their focus is on realtime playback, not realtime monitoring) Realtime playback (CF is more frame by frame with render previews) (XR excells with live playback of all corrections) CC controls (CF has a levels control, actually has a wide range of controls for grading so you can easily fit it into a 'colorist' style workflow or a 'photoshop' kind of workflow) (XR designed more for traditional grading styles, with a number of added features - no levels control - but some great isolation tools) Effects/Shaders (CF runs inside after effects, so you can apply and after effects plug-ins to the clip and do one simple render out with all your effects/grading applied - you could even do dirt/dust/scratch removal in AE and also grade in CF which is handy) (XR has a few built in effects/plugins but they are all meant to be realtime 'shaders/plugins' so the options aren't quite as vast - no dust bustin'/scratch removal at present time). I'm looking to integrate one of these applications into my suite. I'm in testing with scanning film with the SI2k Mini head, capturing cineform RAW files of color neg super 8/16, then doing the post grading using either CF or XR. (Leaning towards XR because of the Iridas support workflow on both the Camera/Grading, however I am a long time AEffects user/instructor and am very comfortable with what I can do inside AE. Any other users have any recommendations/feedback on these applications? Thanks! (I have no financial interest in these products, just a curious colorist/cinematographer) Justin Lovell ----------------- www.framediscreet.com www.framediscreet.blogspot.com 416.803.1101 Toronto, Canada From rob at cinelab.com Tue Mar 10 21:09:22 2009 From: rob at cinelab.com (Robert Houllahan) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 17:09:22 -0400 Subject: [Tig] Digital Deflection battery? In-Reply-To: <053BE3FC-86AF-4E6D-9AE0-3CA73D261C31@cinelab.com> References: <053BE3FC-86AF-4E6D-9AE0-3CA73D261C31@cinelab.com> Message-ID: <9FA29636-6496-4616-B10C-8B065332D930@cinelab.com> Thanks to everyone for the responses... -Rob- Robert Houllahan rob at cinelab.com Filmmaker Vp Cinelab Inc. www.cinelab.com From cedric.lejeune at workflowers.net Wed Mar 11 09:54:10 2009 From: cedric.lejeune at workflowers.net (Cedric Lejeune) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 10:54:10 +0100 Subject: [Tig] colour decision list In-Reply-To: References: <200903101513.n2AFDMG4026512@blade.simplesystems.org> Message-ID: <49B78A42.6050902@free.fr> > Bob Friesenhahn a écrit : > Isn't the ASC CDL definition a sort of trade secret? Not really, you just write the ASC (David Reisner was my contact) and they give you the specs. It's even on Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ASC_CDL but lacks the update about saturation (using Rec709 weightings). Cedric Lejeune www.workflowers.net pipelines&workflows From dtatut at chrome-imaging.com Wed Mar 11 09:49:31 2009 From: dtatut at chrome-imaging.com (dtatut at chrome-imaging.com) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 10:49:31 +0100 Subject: [Tig] colour decision list In-Reply-To: Message-ID: It's not a trade secret but as the name states it, it's been designed in the US (ASC being an American organization) and the goal and use of it has not been exported very well. Not being in the LA area, it's quite difficult to be present at the meetings and even get the information out from the Committee.. The problem is not that the products do not support it, all of them seem to do so. The problem is to get real-world people to use it. I have discussions with people everyday getting lost with simpler things like conforming... adding color correction parameters on the top of an EDL (which is basically what a CDL is) is a dream for most operators, DoPs, etc. But they just do not take enough time to have a look at all these things. To me it's a question of training and education. Another big issue is that the facilities that actually perform color grading for their clients face the fact that they have to cope with what the client brings them. Given the challenging economical times, it's difficult to "force" a client to embrace a workflow... even if it would make much more sense from a technical point of view.. Dan Dan Tatut Chief Executive Officer Chrome Imaging SA 1 Rue des Tuillieres CH-1196 Gland Switzerland Phone: +41 22 364 54 71 Fax: +41 22 807 23 70 WWW: http://www.chrome-imaging.com -----Message d'origine----- De : Bob Friesenhahn [mailto:bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us] Envoyé : mercredi, 11. mars 2009 00:09 À : dtatut at chrome-imaging.com Cc : 'tig Group' Objet : Re: [Tig] colour decision list On Tue, 10 Mar 2009, dtatut at chrome-imaging.com wrote: > > The ASC CDLs were defined by a bunch of people in Hollywood Heaven. Outside > this area and besides geeks and techies nobody even knows about ASC CDLs. > Saying the opposite is a big lie. Isn't the ASC CDL definition a sort of trade secret? Bob -- Bob Friesenhahn bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/ GraphicsMagick Maintainer, http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/ From rcurrier at synthetic-ap.com Wed Mar 11 02:00:13 2009 From: rcurrier at synthetic-ap.com (Bob Currier) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 18:00:13 -0800 Subject: [Tig] colour decision list In-Reply-To: References: <200903101513.n2AFDMG4026512@blade.simplesystems.org> Message-ID: <20090311020013.1893538135@smarthost.coxmail.com> Errr...no. It's readily available from the ASC Tech Committee. ----- Bob Currier rcurrier at synthetic-ap.com Synthetic Aperture voice: +1 949 493-3444 Helping Make Your Work Look Its Best fax: +1 949 203-2108 web: www.synthetic-ap.com On Tue, Mar 10, 2009 3:08 PM, Bob Friesenhahn wrote: >Isn't the ASC CDL definition a sort of trade secret? > >Bob >-- >Bob Friesenhahn >bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/ >GraphicsMagick Maintainer, http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/ From screenwarmer at cox.net Wed Mar 11 02:44:40 2009 From: screenwarmer at cox.net (Rich Montez) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 22:44:40 -0400 Subject: [Tig] colour decision list In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20090310224440.FX533.74860.imail@fed1rmwml30> >>The ASC CDLs were defined by a bunch of people in Hollywood Heaven. >>Outside this area and besides geeks and techies nobody even knows >>about ASC CDLs. > > Saying the opposite is a big lie. Hello, I have been to many of the ASC meetings in which the CDL was discussed and created so I feel I must chime in here. The ASC CDL was created with best of intentions to create a standard which could be used between post facilities and equipment in the same way a punch tape worked between film labs for so many years. With the advent of DI there was a realization that there was no usable data which could be retraced. No common standard. The ASC realized it would not provide all the info necessary but it was a start. It can be argued how usable this data will actually be but I have seen houses in Soho London use it with valid results so I know it is used in places other than Hollywood. >>Isn't the ASC CDL definition a sort of trade secret? The definition and parameters are very public. I'm not trying to argue here and I'm not going to say this is the best thing since sliced bread but it sounds like there are a few misconceptions out there. Thanks, Rich Montez Colorist From velocite at gmail.com Fri Mar 13 10:00:27 2009 From: velocite at gmail.com (john buck) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2009 21:00:27 +1100 Subject: [Tig] Paper Memories Message-ID: <5DEE5EFD-278D-4978-9B88-4773FF51F1AA@gmail.com> I'm being a scrooge but at $75 a pop can you blame me? Does anyone retain a copy of any or all of the following American Cinematographers? 1985 / 02 - February Issue of American Cinematographer 1985 / 06 - June Issue of American Cinematographer 1985 / 09 - September Issue of American Cinematographer I just want to access a story in each for research on my editing history project. Happy to top up someone's iTunes account online :-) Thanks john From rob at colorist.org Fri Mar 13 17:11:47 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2009 19:11:47 +0200 Subject: [Tig] TIG NAB Focus Sheet 2009- call for participants Message-ID: we have updates to the TIG NAB Focus Sheet for 2009. please see the Cintel update with graphics. calling for more participants. additionally: Digital Vision Autodesk FilmLight FSI -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From rob at colorist.org Fri Mar 13 17:15:09 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2009 19:15:09 +0200 Subject: [Tig] calendar events Message-ID: <55CC909E-AE7C-4930-A56C-0B019578B6D6@colorist.org> some new entries for the TIG calendar of events at http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3/index.php/Calendars:TIG_main for March and April. NAB events managers please either edit the calendar directly or send the information to me. regards Rob -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From ted at tedlangdell.com Sat Mar 14 06:14:20 2009 From: ted at tedlangdell.com (Ted Langdell) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2009 23:14:20 -0700 Subject: [Tig] =?iso-8859-1?q?Kinescope_transfers--Moir=E9_reduction_or_el?= =?iso-8859-1?q?imination_during/after_telecine?= Message-ID: Howdy from Elko, NV, heading west... I know someone's had to deal with this during transfer of kinney's using big iron equipment. While at an archive in Salt Lake City this week, I had a chance to run a monochrome negative kinescope on the flashtransfer. The film image via 10-bit 4:2:2 SDI was surprisingly sharp, but the scan lines in the kinney and the scan lines in the telecined image caused cyclical moiré, with color fringing on horizontal lines during the moiré cycle. You'd see a Nike Swoosh at the top of the moiré... and just beating of the lines below that. I would think there were techniques developed to combat this problem back when Kinney's ruled television recording... and that there are ones developed for use with more modern equipment. Or perhaps software for NLE's or hardware based boxes that improve the situation. Defocusing the image does reduce the moiré, but also reduces the sharpness. I plan to play with changing the image size when I can get the film sent here and set up again. I can check the 10-bit file and see whether there's a 3-2 pulldown relationship (or 2-3 for Rob :) and with the kinescope mounted, see what happens if I use progressive (non-interlaced) into FCP instead of a standard interlaced NTSC signal. Any suggestions would be welcome. I'd be happy to post results if anyone's interested. (Text and/or frame grabs to the TIG Wiki or elsewhere.) Thanks, much, in advance. Have a good weekend! Ted Ted Langdell flashscan8.us 209 East 12th Street Marysville, CA 95901 Main: (530) 741-1212 Cell: (530) 301-2931 ted at flashscan8.us See you at AMIA 2009 in St. Louis flashscan8.us From steve.roberts at bbc.co.uk Sat Mar 14 14:56:44 2009 From: steve.roberts at bbc.co.uk (Steve Roberts - Post Production) Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2009 14:56:44 -0000 Subject: [Tig] =?iso-8859-1?q?Kinescope_transfers--Moir=E9_reduction_or_el?= =?iso-8859-1?q?imination_during/after_telecine?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <244E9A3A7711D64DBF9C99CE1DFA9EB004B6BD76@bbcxue218.national.core.bbc.co.uk> The usual solution is to optically defocus the scanner - you lose a bit of the top-end resolution, but it prevents the scan lines aliasing back as low-frequency patterning. On flying spot telecines, I used to adjust the astigmatism so that the spot was oval, reducing vertical resolution but maintaining horizontal resolution. Steve Roberts | Senior Engineer | BBC Resources Room 3501 | BBC Television Centre | Wood Lane | London | W12 7RJ T: +44 (0)20 857 64556 | F: +44 (0)20 857 61639 http://www.bbcresources.com BBC Resources Limited Registered Number 3593793 England Registered Office: Television Centre, Wood Lane, London W12 7RJ -----Original Message----- From: tig-bounces at colorist.org [mailto:tig-bounces at colorist.org] On Behalf Of Ted Langdell Sent: 14 March 2009 06:14 To: Group Internet Telecine Subject: [Tig] Kinescope transfers--Moiré reduction or elimination during/after telecine 2203 subscribers as of March 2009 Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG. Cintel supports the TIG. ==== Howdy from Elko, NV, heading west... I know someone's had to deal with this during transfer of kinney's using big iron equipment. While at an archive in Salt Lake City this week, I had a chance to run a monochrome negative kinescope on the flashtransfer. The film image via 10-bit 4:2:2 SDI was surprisingly sharp, but the scan lines in the kinney and the scan lines in the telecined image caused cyclical moiré, with color fringing on horizontal lines during the moiré cycle. You'd see a Nike Swoosh at the top of the moiré... and just beating of the lines below that. I would think there were techniques developed to combat this problem back when Kinney's ruled television recording... and that there are ones developed for use with more modern equipment. Or perhaps software for NLE's or hardware based boxes that improve the situation. Defocusing the image does reduce the moiré, but also reduces the sharpness. I plan to play with changing the image size when I can get the film sent here and set up again. I can check the 10-bit file and see whether there's a 3-2 pulldown relationship (or 2-3 for Rob :) and with the kinescope mounted, see what happens if I use progressive (non-interlaced) into FCP instead of a standard interlaced NTSC signal. Any suggestions would be welcome. I'd be happy to post results if anyone's interested. (Text and/or frame grabs to the TIG Wiki or elsewhere.) Thanks, much, in advance. Have a good weekend! Ted Ted Langdell flashscan8.us 209 East 12th Street Marysville, CA 95901 Main: (530) 741-1212 Cell: (530) 301-2931 ted at flashscan8.us See you at AMIA 2009 in St. Louis flashscan8.us _______________________________________________ http://reels.colorist.org http://www.colorist.org/wiki3 http://www.bbc.co.uk/ This e-mail (and any attachments) is confidential and may contain personal views which are not the views of the BBC unless specifically stated. If you have received it in error, please delete it from your system. Do not use, copy or disclose the information in any way nor act in reliance on it and notify the sender immediately. Please note that the BBC monitors e-mails sent or received. Further communication will signify your consent to this. From peter_swinson at compuserve.com Sat Mar 14 16:42:16 2009 From: peter_swinson at compuserve.com (peter_swinson) Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2009 11:42:16 -0500 Subject: [Tig] =?iso-8859-1?q?Kinescope_transfers--Moir=E9_reduction_or=09?= =?iso-8859-1?q?elimination_during/after_telecine?= Message-ID: <200903141042_MC3-2-1D3C-ED9C@compuserve.com> Ted Langdell asked about moiré reduction where a kinescope line structure was recorded on the film and aliased with the subsequent telecine line scanning. Cintel, used to offer a anti-alias system for URSA, and I believe the ITK machines. This comprised a elongation of the spot just in the vertical plane. This reduced aliasing caused by the scan lines by effectively reducing vertical resolution without reducing horizontal resolution. It was dialable so could be adjusted to suit the material. I remember it worked well on roof tiles and anything with a repeating vertical pattern down the film image. Horizontal aliasing is rarely a problem as the video bandwidth and sampling is so much higher. Now I don't know what would happen if you rotated the scan so that the high horizontal sampling caught all the kinescope image lines. In itself I guess it would be great, BUT, when you then un-rotate the resultant video I guess it will again alias with the video line structure, unless of course you have at this stage separate H & V filters that can be set. Cheers Peter From NJK at cbsnews.com Sat Mar 14 17:03:00 2009 From: NJK at cbsnews.com (Kassner, Neal) Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2009 13:03:00 -0400 Subject: [Tig] Plasma Displays References: Message-ID: <28375BA0FC85BC4084C942D659F636E9175C7493@NYCCNDX02.cbsnewsenps.cbsnews.net> I was talking to an equipment reseller yesterday, a guy who's worked in the New York City market for a very long time, so I think he knows whereof he speaks. He told me that post facilities around town are beginning to install plasma displays in their grading rooms due to the absence of high-quality LCD or LED displays larger than 23-24". Apparently today's plasmas have acceptable black reproduction, colorimetry, and view angle, good enough so that size matters. If true, are other non-NY facilities going the same route? Neal Kassner Colorist CBS News/NY From underscan at gmail.com Sat Mar 14 17:48:01 2009 From: underscan at gmail.com (underscan at gmail.com) Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2009 18:48:01 +0100 Subject: [Tig] Plasma Displays In-Reply-To: <28375BA0FC85BC4084C942D659F636E9175C7493@NYCCNDX02.cbsnewsenps.cbsnews.net> References: <28375BA0FC85BC4084C942D659F636E9175C7493@NYCCNDX02.cbsnewsenps.cbsnews.net> Message-ID: <87A59BC6-982C-40FE-A85C-50F84FFC4F15@gmail.com> any specific brands or models being used for this?? cheerz mark > > ... post facilities around town are beginning to install plasma > displays in their grading rooms due to the absence of high-quality > LCD or LED displays larger than 23-24". Apparently today's plasmas > have acceptable black reproduction, colorimetry, and view angle, > good enough so that size matters. -- underscan films | berlin From dcorbitt77 at comcast.net Sat Mar 14 18:04:57 2009 From: dcorbitt77 at comcast.net (dcorbitt77 at comcast.net) Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2009 18:04:57 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Tig] Plasma Displays In-Reply-To: <28375BA0FC85BC4084C942D659F636E9175C7493@NYCCNDX02.cbsnewsenps.cbsnews.net> Message-ID: <423816774.9072241237053897487.JavaMail.root@sz0137a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> Hi Neal, We use them here at HBO Studios in NYC, 50" 16:9 displays. The newest ones have Dual Link HD-SDI inputs. Pictures look good if they are set up correctly. A 50" Plasma is optimally viewed at a 6 foot viewing distance if you follow visual acuity guidelines. You have to carefully set white balance in high and low lights for correct D65, gamma to 2.5, peak whites to 100 candelas. AGC must be OFF. Color Space must be set to be as close as possible to Rec 709. Dave Corbitt Summit, NJ 07901 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Neal Kassner" To: "Rob Lingelbach" , "Telecine Internet Group" Sent: Saturday, March 14, 2009 1:03:00 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: [Tig] Plasma Displays I was talking to an equipment reseller yesterday, a guy who's worked in the New York City market for a very long time, so I think he knows whereof he speaks. He told me that post facilities around town are beginning to install plasma displays in their grading rooms due to the absence of high-quality LCD or LED displays larger than 23-24". Apparently today's plasmas have acceptable black reproduction, colorimetry, and view angle, good enough so that size matters. If true, are other non-NY facilities going the same route? Neal Kassner Colorist CBS News/NY From ken at flight4.org Sat Mar 14 17:11:55 2009 From: ken at flight4.org (Ken Robinson) Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2009 15:11:55 -0200 Subject: [Tig] Plasma Displays In-Reply-To: <28375BA0FC85BC4084C942D659F636E9175C7493@NYCCNDX02.cbsnewsenps.cbsnews.net> References: <28375BA0FC85BC4084C942D659F636E9175C7493@NYCCNDX02.cbsnewsenps.cbsnews.net> Message-ID: <001c01c9a4c7$fbbe7520$6600a8c0@flight4> I have heard the same for a BIG facility in London... who really should speak for themselves! ken robinson Argentina GSM: +54 9 2941 637570 -----Original Message----- From: tig-bounces at colorist.org [mailto:tig-bounces at colorist.org] On Behalf f Kassner, Neal If true, are other non-NY facilities going the same route? Neal Kassner Colorist CBS News/NY ://www.colorist.org/wiki3 From peter at kaurus.com Sat Mar 14 18:52:26 2009 From: peter at kaurus.com (Peter Sutton) Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2009 18:52:26 -0000 Subject: [Tig] =?windows-1252?q?Kinescope_transfers--Moir=E9_reduction_or_?= =?windows-1252?q?elimination_during/after_telecine?= In-Reply-To: <244E9A3A7711D64DBF9C99CE1DFA9EB004B6BD76@bbcxue218.national.core.bbc.co.uk> Message-ID: Steve, This sounds like Ursa's Scandal. It was quite cool as we could set the control of this on the desk to have a one of two min to max settings. The spot would be incrementally made elliptical from fully anti as a round spot to the point of nonsensicle defocus when fully clock, or, have a mid point of zer (round spot) and scandal toward clock and round spot defocusing toward anti. If memory serves, this was a programmable parameter but I don’t think it was used under programme control that often. There was also a feel you could get with subtly using the aperture correction settings in tandem with Scandal. You could play around with coring, course and fine controls to carefully bring a little lost definition back without making it look false. Although I played with this with good results on Millennium it's in the hands of the colourist this used to best effect Peter Sutton Kaurus Ltd (Ex Cintel and ITK in a past life) TD Kaurus® Limited Ph: +44 (0)1992 460 591 Mob: +44 (0) 7779 242 790 Email: peter at kaurus.com Web: www.kaurus.com Skype: petertk1 The usual solution is to optically defocus the scanner - you lose a bit of the top-end resolution, but it prevents the scan lines aliasing back as low-frequency patterning. On flying spot telecines, I used to adjust the astigmatism so that the spot was oval, reducing vertical resolution but maintaining horizontal resolution. Steve Roberts | Senior Engineer | BBC Resources Room 3501 | BBC Television Centre | Wood Lane | London | W12 7RJ T: +44 (0)20 857 64556 | F: +44 (0)20 857 61639 http://www.bbcresources.com BBC Resources Limited Registered Number 3593793 England Registered Office: Television Centre, Wood Lane, London W12 7RJ From steve.roberts at bbc.co.uk Sat Mar 14 18:55:46 2009 From: steve.roberts at bbc.co.uk (Steve Roberts - Post Production) Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2009 18:55:46 -0000 Subject: [Tig] =?iso-8859-1?q?Kinescope_transfers--Moir=E9_reduction_or_el?= =?iso-8859-1?q?imination_during/after_telecine?= In-Reply-To: References: <244E9A3A7711D64DBF9C99CE1DFA9EB004B6BD76@bbcxue218.national.core.bbc.co.uk> Message-ID: <244E9A3A7711D64DBF9C99CE1DFA9EB004B6BD77@bbcxue218.national.core.bbc.co.uk> Yes, we have a Scandal on our Ursa Diamond Y-Front machine. But I was thinking of how we used to have to tweak the astig manually on the old MK3s! Steve Roberts | Senior Engineer | BBC Resources Room 3501 | BBC Television Centre | Wood Lane | London | W12 7RJ T: +44 (0)20 857 64556 | F: +44 (0)20 857 61639 http://www.bbcresources.com BBC Resources Limited Registered Number 3593793 England Registered Office: Television Centre, Wood Lane, London W12 7RJ From bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us Sun Mar 15 15:46:15 2009 From: bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us (Bob Friesenhahn) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2009 10:46:15 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [Tig] Plasma Displays In-Reply-To: <28375BA0FC85BC4084C942D659F636E9175C7493@NYCCNDX02.cbsnewsenps.cbsnews.net> References: <28375BA0FC85BC4084C942D659F636E9175C7493@NYCCNDX02.cbsnewsenps.cbsnews.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 14 Mar 2009, Kassner, Neal wrote: > > I was talking to an equipment reseller yesterday, a guy who's worked > in the New York City market for a very long time, so I think he > knows whereof he speaks. He told me that post facilities around town > are beginning to install plasma displays in their grading rooms due > to the absence of high-quality LCD or LED displays larger than > 23-24". Apparently today's plasmas have acceptable black > reproduction, colorimetry, and view angle, good enough so that size > matters. If true, are other non-NY facilities going the same route? It was only a month ago that I suggested here that high-grade consumer DLP displays could be used in a grading room given sufficient attention to setup and calibration. I was taken to task at that time for suggesting something so inadequate, but now I see that people are accepting of Plasma, which is surely a less suitable technology than DLP, LCOS, or even LCD. Most experts would score Plasma dead-last when it comes to stability and accuracy. What's up with that? Has the raw sex-appeal of Plasma become more important than stability and accuracy? Bob -- Bob Friesenhahn bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/ GraphicsMagick Maintainer, http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/ From chili.styles at gmail.com Sun Mar 15 21:53:35 2009 From: chili.styles at gmail.com (Bojan Mastilovic) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2009 22:53:35 +0100 Subject: [Tig] Scanner cleaning after VS infected film Message-ID: <198fc9800903151453v55c39821l900a12efb40a5fc3@mail.gmail.com> Hello, we are working on a scanning of a large quantity of archive films from 1946-1970. We are testing all reels with A-D Strips, for vinegar syndrome. So far, there is only one roll infected, but we need to scan it also. The question is, with what should we clean our scanner after infected roll is scanned, to prevent spreading the syndrome on any new rolls we load to scanner? Thanks, -- Bojan Mastilovic Producer Restart Production www.restart.si From micah at mipost.com Mon Mar 16 14:09:25 2009 From: micah at mipost.com (Micah Kirz) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2009 10:09:25 -0400 Subject: [Tig] Plasma Displays In-Reply-To: <87A59BC6-982C-40FE-A85C-50F84FFC4F15@gmail.com> References: <28375BA0FC85BC4084C942D659F636E9175C7493@NYCCNDX02.cbsnewsenps.cbsnews.net> <87A59BC6-982C-40FE-A85C-50F84FFC4F15@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20A4C2A8-3140-4041-BA35-F5248DFB06F1@mipost.com> this is what NY seems to be using.... to bad Pioneer will stop making them in 2010.... Pioneer Elite® KURO™ PRO-151FD High-Definition TV http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/PUSA/Products/HomeEntertainment/ PlasmaTVs+Monitors/EliteTVs/ci.PRO-151FD.Kuro or Pioneer Elite® PRO-141FD KURO™ High-Definition monitor http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/PUSA/Products/HomeEntertainment/ PlasmaTVs+Monitors/EliteMonitors/ci.PRO-141FD.Kuro good luck M Micah Kirz Senior Telecine Colorist MI Post 227 East 45th Street NYC 10017 212-953-6999 micah at micahkirz.com http://www.micahkirz.com From Craig.Nichols at dft-film.com Tue Mar 17 07:24:25 2009 From: Craig.Nichols at dft-film.com (Nichols Craig) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2009 00:24:25 -0700 Subject: [Tig] Plasma Displays In-Reply-To: <20A4C2A8-3140-4041-BA35-F5248DFB06F1@mipost.com> References: <28375BA0FC85BC4084C942D659F636E9175C7493@NYCCNDX02.cbsnewsenps.cbsnews.net><87A59BC6-982C-40FE-A85C-50F84FFC4F15@gmail.com> <20A4C2A8-3140-4041-BA35-F5248DFB06F1@mipost.com> Message-ID: <62DAB953E22F4F4C855BB91C6FABDDA5042102E5@NEVCSMAIL05.am.thmulti.com> I've seen many of Pioneer Kuro Plasmas in my travels around Los Angeles facilities. Don't work for them, wish I had one at home. Too bad they won't be making them after 2010. Craig Nichols Technical Service Engineer - DFA Digital Film Technology craig.nichols at dft-film.com www.dft-film.com From bob at bluescreen.com Tue Mar 17 20:27:39 2009 From: bob at bluescreen.com (Bob Kertesz) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2009 13:27:39 -0700 Subject: [Tig] Plasma Displays In-Reply-To: References: <28375BA0FC85BC4084C942D659F636E9175C7493@NYCCNDX02.cbsnewsenps.cbsnews.net> Message-ID: <4810s45h88qpuvp98bsbvdgi9p0a7nm3us@4ax.com> >now I see that people are accepting of Plasma, which is surely a less suitable technology than >DLP, LCOS, or even LCD. Most experts would score Plasma dead-last >when it comes to stability and accuracy. >What's up with that? Has the raw sex-appeal of Plasma become more >important than stability and accuracy? I don't know about the unsuitability of plasmas. When I went looking for a 40"-50" set for the bedroom last fall, the showroom at a local Circuit City had about 80 or so sets all tuned to the same looping HD content, and I have to say that the Panasonic plasmas had hands down the best blacks and the best reds in the showroom. Nothing even came close. Having set up many sets myself, I do understand that much of this has to do with a set's setup. But neither DLP, nor LCD, nor LCOS (I have a 70" JVC LCOS set and a 40" Toshiba LCD set) can come close to the deep blacks and saturated relatively noise-free reds displayed by the Panasonic plasmas. I chose to go with LCD over plasma for three reasons: power consumption, heat, and fan noise, all of which the Panasonic plasmas had twice as much of as any of the comparable size LCDs. But I don't think any of those reasons have much relevance in a professional setting. If I was buying a 40" client monitor right now, I'd go with a high end Panasonic or Pioneer plasma over any other type of set. --Bob Bob Kertesz BlueScreen LLC Hollywood, California bob at bluescreen.com The Ultimate in ULTIMATTE® compositing. For details, visit http://www.bluescreen.com From ted at tedlangdell.com Wed Mar 18 10:08:51 2009 From: ted at tedlangdell.com (Ted Langdell) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 03:08:51 -0700 Subject: [Tig] =?iso-8859-1?q?Kinescope_transfers--Moir=E9_reduction_or_el?= =?iso-8859-1?q?imination_during/after_telecine?= In-Reply-To: <244E9A3A7711D64DBF9C99CE1DFA9EB004B6BD77@bbcxue218.national.core.bbc.co.uk> References: <244E9A3A7711D64DBF9C99CE1DFA9EB004B6BD76@bbcxue218.national.core.bbc.co.uk> <244E9A3A7711D64DBF9C99CE1DFA9EB004B6BD77@bbcxue218.national.core.bbc.co.uk> Message-ID: <3033C062-DB6B-41BF-A23C-91227E57A6D8@tedlangdell.com> Thanks everyone for the replies. Any ideas about elimination using a camera-based system would be welcome. Ted Ted Langdell flashscan8.us 209 East 12th Street Marysville, CA 95901 Main: (530) 741-1212 Cell: (530) 301-2931 ted at flashscan8.us Skype: TedLangdell See you at AMIA 2009 in St. Louis! From rob at colorist.org Wed Mar 18 17:40:54 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 19:40:54 +0200 Subject: [Tig] techniques with DaVinci 2k+: multiple passes Message-ID: Suppose you're working with original negative, final grade, and it's necessary to provide 2nd (maybe 3rd, 4th) passes on scenes. With the 2k+, using a single session file, you can use the memory VSRs, or, what I do is the following that works well in many cases. I'd like to know if anyone else does this. there are usually a few seconds of camera flash, or at least several frames before or during the slate, where you can mark events. I mark 1 event as a "buffer" event and then mark, according to how many other passes are needed, the frames immediately before this buffer event as placeholders for each of the other passes; in the case of e.g. 3 passes, I will have 4 events: the buffer event (which is the main placeholder for the scene); an event one frame before for the 1st pass (labeled in the note for the event), another just before for the 2nd pass, and another immediately before that for the 3rd pass, each labeled with a note. then when it comes time to do the alternate passes, I plug in the other gradings using scroll mode. This method works well for keeping an orderly list most of the time. The catch comes when I have a dynamic event: color dissolve or programmed move or both. Then I make a copy of the session file and name it appropriately. This gets a little more complicated because it's easy in the heat of the session to forget which is the active file while grading, and also necessitates a session reload when switching between the passes while grading and while recording out. I wonder if anyone else uses that first gimmick, of hiding or tucking in behind the main event the alternate grades. incidentally, there is a way to manage your grades in the list without having to move the film, in case you want to plug in a grading from a scratchpad memory, that may be undocumented. Let's say you're on the 10th take of a scene, and the lighting is constant, and the decision is made to adjust the grading, and you've been marking each take not knowing beforehand if the lighting has changed. Without moving the film, store the revised grading in a memory (let's say MEM A); using scroll mode, back up into each of the previous events for the scene and hit MEM A for each event you've scrolled to. This stores whatever is in MEM A into those previous events. I've been using these methods for many years, and am sometimes surprised to find colorists doing these things in a different way. Rob -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From NJK at cbsnews.com Wed Mar 18 18:12:29 2009 From: NJK at cbsnews.com (Kassner, Neal) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 14:12:29 -0400 Subject: [Tig] techniques with DaVinci 2k+: multiple passes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <28375BA0FC85BC4084C942D659F636E90F2664E2@NYCCNDX02.cbsnewsenps.cbsnews.net> I used to do something similar when I worked with a pre-DUI Renaissance that had only 5 scratchpad mems and no VSRs, color correcting 1-hour docs, retrospectives, and obits. In the color bars portion of the timeline I would create 50-100 dummy marks, one frame apart. After correcting a shot I knew would repeat later in the project, I would copy that grade into one of the dummy marks, writing a shorthand description of the shot down on a paper list. When that shot or one similar to it reappeared later in the show I would consult the list and apply the appropriate scene number to the current shot. It didn't matter that the color bars levels and grades jumped all over the place when playing back, since I always laid down fresh bars as part of the final layback. I just had to hope that creating all those dummy marks didn't make the session exceed the 999-event limit... Neal Kassner Colorist CBS News/NY From craig at optimus.com Wed Mar 18 18:32:03 2009 From: craig at optimus.com (Craig Leffel) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 13:32:03 -0500 Subject: [Tig] techniques with DaVinci 2k+: multiple passes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49C13E23.5000200@optimus.com> Rob Lingelbach wrote: > The catch comes when I have a dynamic event: color dissolve or > programmed move or both. Then I make a copy of the session file and > name it appropriately. This gets a little more complicated because > it's easy in the heat of the session to forget which is the active > file while grading, and also necessitates a session reload when > switching between the passes while grading and while recording out. There's an easier way to do this; but it requires a little more thought - I primarily work on commercials, so your mileage may vary - I use copy marks. So, you can select the event numbers you want and copy them to a new TC range. What this usually means is that you make dummy marks within a certain hour. I usually use a 45 minute offset to the hour I'm copying. So, roll 1:00:00:00 may become 17:45:00:00 .... Then take notice of the first mark in your dynamic. Copy the range of marks in your dynamic. let's say 17,21 Hit ( copy marks is located on top right of right hand 2K panel ) - a dialog box will pop up and want to know where you want to put the copied marks. Type in the TC offset you want to use, in the hour you created. In this case the hour is 17:45. You would type in the actual full tc offset for the first mark in your selection.... in this case maybe 17:52:21:26. THEN hit MARK. The dialog box will go away, and you will see the marks created in the hour you made first. No VSR's will copy, but the full cc and positions will copy. When it comes to recording to tape you can offset to whatever you need. This is only for using marks as dummys, and I realise many Film productions have full lists with :15, :30 and :45 minute offsets already.... Good luck - Craig Leffel From rob at colorist.org Wed Mar 18 18:39:45 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 20:39:45 +0200 Subject: [Tig] techniques with DaVinci 2k+: multiple passes In-Reply-To: <49C13E23.5000200@optimus.com> References: <49C13E23.5000200@optimus.com> Message-ID: On Mar 18, 2009, at 8:32 PM, Craig Leffel wrote: > There's an easier way to do this; but it requires a little more > thought - I primarily work on commercials, so your mileage may vary - > > I use copy marks. So, you can select the event numbers you want and > copy them to a new TC range Ron Sudul also sent me a reply saying he uses this method, maybe I'll switch, if the TC range permits it for the session. thanks for the tip Craig. Rob -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From brandon at orbitdigital.com Wed Mar 18 18:50:18 2009 From: brandon at orbitdigital.com (Brandon Bussinger) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 14:50:18 -0400 Subject: [Tig] Plasma Displays In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7521E618-0005-4C6D-B73E-953F88D6C6D2@orbitdigital.com> A lot of people are buying the Panasonics and Pioneers. Seeing as there is really no true replacement yet for CRT and with the supposed replacements costing many times more than the plasmas they seem to make sense as at least a stop gap measure. I was wondering what sensors seem to be doing the best job at getting accurate readings for colorimetry, and what methodology people were using to calibrate the plasmas (i.e.- reading R, G, and B and using the menus to try and get close to REC 709 primaries, or using a LUT? How many foot lamberts? Are you using surround lights?). Brandon Bussinger Senior Colorist Orbit Digital 1619 Broadway 7th floor NY, NY 10019 646.731.3100 brandon at orbitdigital.com From ken at flight4.org Wed Mar 18 18:50:00 2009 From: ken at flight4.org (Ken Robinson) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 15:50:00 -0300 Subject: [Tig] techniques with DaVinci 2k+: multiple passes In-Reply-To: <49C13E23.5000200@optimus.com> References: <49C13E23.5000200@optimus.com> Message-ID: <006b01c9a7fa$58ffc6f0$6600a8c0@flight4> How extremely complicated... Buy a Pogle and have as many lists as you want open in one session... Copy them, modify them, call them names even... Next problem? ken robinson Argentina GSM: +54 9 2941 637570 Rob Lingelbach wrote: > The catch comes when I have a dynamic event: color dissolve or > programmed move or both. Then I make a copy of the session file and > name it appropriately. This gets a little more complicated because > it's easy in the heat of the session to forget which is the active > file while grading, and also necessitates a session reload when > switching between the passes while grading and while recording out. From rob at colorist.org Wed Mar 18 18:55:26 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 20:55:26 +0200 Subject: [Tig] techniques with DaVinci 2k+: multiple passes In-Reply-To: <006b01c9a7fa$58ffc6f0$6600a8c0@flight4> References: <49C13E23.5000200@optimus.com> <006b01c9a7fa$58ffc6f0$6600a8c0@flight4> Message-ID: <3AF17BC1-6D01-4479-9B76-A00F5DDCA82A@colorist.org> On Mar 18, 2009, at 8:50 PM, Ken Robinson wrote: > > How extremely complicated... Buy a Pogle and have as many lists as > you want > open in one session... Copy them, modify them, call them names even... yes, it was one of the features of Pogle that made it very attractive. I haven't had the pleasure of working with Resolve yet, but I imagine it may handle lists in a similar way- you're not tied to 1 at a time. -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From ken at flight4.org Wed Mar 18 19:02:21 2009 From: ken at flight4.org (Ken Robinson) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 16:02:21 -0300 Subject: [Tig] techniques with DaVinci 2k+: multiple passes In-Reply-To: <49C1436B.3090006@optimus.com> References: <49C13E23.5000200@optimus.com> <006b01c9a7fa$58ffc6f0$6600a8c0@flight4> <49C1436B.3090006@optimus.com> Message-ID: <006c01c9a7fc$12e95ad0$6600a8c0@flight4> Actually, (beginning one of those unwinnable fights). the newer Pogles do toilet bowls very well (on several layers)! And have support staff online via skype most of the time! And. are doing some quite cool things now with its new chipset! Anyway. not really the point if you own a daVinci! In that case you need the complicated work round! ken robinson From craig at optimus.com Wed Mar 18 19:13:45 2009 From: craig at optimus.com (Craig Leffel) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 14:13:45 -0500 Subject: [Tig] techniques with DaVinci 2k+: multiple passes Message-ID: <49C147E9.9090702@optimus.com> Now now Ken.... We were talking about a sophisticated ancient piece of gear that can actually make circles, and has an actual support staff.... and there you go with talking about another ancient product with none of those things.... Though I do love the Pogle layout and other toolset. It just can't do the toilet bowl. I live on the toilet bowl...STILL... even on a Baselight they still ask me for it.... Cheers buddy boy-o !! CL From screenwarmer at cox.net Wed Mar 18 19:27:13 2009 From: screenwarmer at cox.net (Rich Montez) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 15:27:13 -0400 Subject: [Tig] techniques with DaVinci 2k+: multiple passes In-Reply-To: <3AF17BC1-6D01-4479-9B76-A00F5DDCA82A@colorist.org> Message-ID: <20090318152713.CP04A.195272.imail@fed1rmwml35> > yes, it was one of the features of Pogle that made it very attractive. > I haven't had the pleasure of working with Resolve yet, but I imagine > it may handle > lists in a similar way- you're not tied to 1 at a time. Hi Rob, Yes, I agree. I have yet to see list management as good as what the Pogle had but as Craig points out there were some big trade offs. Yes, the Resolve handles multiple passes with and without dissolves or marks quite easily. I have to give Jim Macrell some credit there. He did a nice job making sure it got done right. Rich Montez Colorist From rob at colorist.org Wed Mar 18 19:34:30 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 21:34:30 +0200 Subject: [Tig] Deakins' forum closed Message-ID: <79227BB7-A19E-4C36-9BE7-2515B6F4E69C@colorist.org> Last week I read a very interesting article posted on Roger Deakins' forum explaining his views and trials with both RED and the D21. I just referred a couple of clients to it and now I see that he's closed the forum due to a malefactor. Does anyone perchance have a copy of this text or perhaps even a saved copy of the pages with photos and charts? regards Rob -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From rob at colorist.org Wed Mar 18 20:08:40 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 22:08:40 +0200 Subject: [Tig] received Deakins' paper. Message-ID: <8E511191-003D-4B4F-8CAA-5687AA30AA2B@colorist.org> a very helpful TIGer sent me the Deakins paper on RED. I would like to see if I can obtain rights to put it on the TIG wiki, as it's a wealth of information. -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From martin-p at moving-picture.com Thu Mar 19 12:22:46 2009 From: martin-p at moving-picture.com (Martin Parsons) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 12:22:46 -0000 Subject: [Tig] Plasma Displays In-Reply-To: <62DAB953E22F4F4C855BB91C6FABDDA5042102E5@NEVCSMAIL05.am.thmulti.com> Message-ID: <39EA469F166B7741B8E3305B5B58B4941972DA10@mpcosmail01.ad.mpc.local> Craig wrote: > > I've seen many of Pioneer Kuro Plasmas in my travels around Los Angeles > facilities. > > Don't work for them, wish I had one at home. Too bad they won't be > making them after 2010. > Maybe they've seen the writing on the wall - in sunny, green California at least http://articles.latimes.com/2009/jan/03/business/fi-tv3 Kind regards Martin Martin Parsons Head of Imaging MPC Soho, London www.moving-picture.com From rob at colorist.org Thu Mar 19 12:54:33 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 14:54:33 +0200 Subject: [Tig] Plasma Displays In-Reply-To: <39EA469F166B7741B8E3305B5B58B4941972DA10@mpcosmail01.ad.mpc.local> References: <39EA469F166B7741B8E3305B5B58B4941972DA10@mpcosmail01.ad.mpc.local> Message-ID: <41139D75-91A6-4BC2-A042-F099B0059833@colorist.org> On Mar 19, 2009, at 2:22 PM, Martin Parsons wrote: > Maybe they've seen the writing on the wall - in sunny, green > California > at least > > http://articles.latimes.com/2009/jan/03/business/fi-tv3 quoted from the article: "Television sales are growing by 4 million a year, and the vast majority are flat-panels. LCD -- liquid crystal display -- sets on average use 43% more electricity than conventional, picture-tube TVs, and larger models proportionately more. Plasma TVs, which command a relatively small piece of the market, need over three times as much power as bulky, old-style sets." so, the 1953 Admiral I grew up watching (see http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3/index.php/Photo_albums ) should be remanufactured. There was something very satisfying changing channels- you really knew you were changing, the confirming clunk of the multi-contact rotary switch. Fine-tuning, you actually tuned the set. Could also DX stations in Connecticut, Rhode Island, even Philadelphia, from NYC. None of that with digital OTA ! -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From jfmann at optimum.net Thu Mar 19 13:59:48 2009 From: jfmann at optimum.net (Jim Mann) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 09:59:48 -0400 Subject: [Tig] techniques with DaVinci 2k+: multiple passes In-Reply-To: <49C13E23.5000200@optimus.com> References: <49C13E23.5000200@optimus.com> Message-ID: <005801c9a89a$f7ec7ab0$e7c57010$@net> Hey Craig, I like that and I do pretty much the same thing. It keeps everything within the same session file. Rob, if your just adding an alternate grade. You can use this will add a event plus one frame from the last mark. On the same idea adds an additional still/VSR (but not a color correction) Jim Jim Mann Colorist Postworks NY http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3/index.php/User:Jim_Mann From rob at colorist.org Thu Mar 19 14:43:58 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 16:43:58 +0200 Subject: [Tig] techniques with DaVinci 2k+: multiple passes In-Reply-To: <005801c9a89a$f7ec7ab0$e7c57010$@net> References: <49C13E23.5000200@optimus.com> <005801c9a89a$f7ec7ab0$e7c57010$@net> Message-ID: <963518F6-DE8C-4832-80DC-5702F6D60A0C@colorist.org> On Mar 19, 2009, at 3:59 PM, Jim Mann wrote: > Rob, if your just adding an alternate grade. You can use Diamond> > this will add a event plus one frame from the last mark. On > the same > idea adds an additional still/VSR (but not a > color > correction) aha. I knew about the first but not the second, that's a good tip. Is there a way to have the VSRs and the stills default to showing string display without having to turn it on per session? (i'm waiting for someone to tell me "Read The F.... Manual" hah) -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From rob at colorist.org Thu Mar 19 15:09:13 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 17:09:13 +0200 Subject: [Tig] Fwd: Seeking a freelance colorist References: <49C25C97.70605@kenyon.edu> Message-ID: <90F9DE83-4B2B-4728-AA3E-0F8636399A48@colorist.org> Begin forwarded message: > From: Daniel Elihu Kramer > Date: March 19, 2009 4:54:15 PM GMT+02:00 > To: rob at colorist.org > Subject: Seeking a freelance colorist > > Looking for a colorist to take an indie narrative HD feature > (Kitchen Hamlet) through post and output. Shot on P2, edited > offline in avid. We do not have facilities, so you would need > access to facilities. > Contact Daniel Elihu Kramer at kramerd at kenyon.edu > -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us Thu Mar 19 15:53:20 2009 From: bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us (Bob Friesenhahn) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 10:53:20 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [Tig] Plasma Displays In-Reply-To: <39EA469F166B7741B8E3305B5B58B4941972DA10@mpcosmail01.ad.mpc.local> References: <39EA469F166B7741B8E3305B5B58B4941972DA10@mpcosmail01.ad.mpc.local> Message-ID: On Thu, 19 Mar 2009, Martin Parsons wrote: > > Maybe they've seen the writing on the wall - in sunny, green California > at least > > http://articles.latimes.com/2009/jan/03/business/fi-tv3 It is about time. Quite a lot of consumer electronics pays no attention to power draw at all. The worst offenders draw almost as much power when turned "off" as when they are turned "on". Based on the huge advances in cell phone and PDA technology, other consumer electronics should also be able to operate with much less power if it is part of the engineering requirements. My DISH Network set top box is definitely an offender when it comes to power. It consumes so much power that sometimes it has to run its fan on high after it has been used for a few hours, and even with a room temperature of only 74 degrees. After being turned "off" it continues to run its fan on high for quite some time. I have it plugged into a high-grade UPS with a power indicator and see that it continues to consume quite a lot of power when it is turned "off". Bob -- Bob Friesenhahn bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/ GraphicsMagick Maintainer, http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/ From rob at colorist.org Thu Mar 19 17:35:50 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 19:35:50 +0200 Subject: [Tig] freelance position location Message-ID: <830C0BE7-4C16-40A4-B67C-4CE9233037A9@colorist.org> for those who've asked me personally where is the job that needs a colorist freelance, a little investigation on the email contact info turned up: http://www.kenyon.edu/index.xml but until I hear more from the protagonist whom I've contacted, I can't say for sure where it is. Rob TIG admin.founder -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From Craig.Nichols at dft-film.com Thu Mar 19 17:37:12 2009 From: Craig.Nichols at dft-film.com (Nichols Craig) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 10:37:12 -0700 Subject: [Tig] Plasma Displays In-Reply-To: References: <39EA469F166B7741B8E3305B5B58B4941972DA10@mpcosmail01.ad.mpc.local> Message-ID: <62DAB953E22F4F4C855BB91C6FABDDA504254E6F@NEVCSMAIL05.am.thmulti.com> "off" is the new "on" - sometimes I have to say that I find "off" vastly more entertaining that stuff on cable box. ";^) From rob at colorist.org Thu Mar 19 17:44:08 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 19:44:08 +0200 Subject: [Tig] Plasma Displays In-Reply-To: <62DAB953E22F4F4C855BB91C6FABDDA504254E6F@NEVCSMAIL05.am.thmulti.com> References: <39EA469F166B7741B8E3305B5B58B4941972DA10@mpcosmail01.ad.mpc.local> <62DAB953E22F4F4C855BB91C6FABDDA504254E6F@NEVCSMAIL05.am.thmulti.com> Message-ID: <38EDF6E7-67EC-4495-A553-BDC5FC49723F@colorist.org> On Mar 19, 2009, at 7:37 PM, Nichols Craig wrote: > "off" is the new "on" - sometimes I have to say that I find "off" > vastly more entertaining that stuff on cable box. ";^) and, if you don't have the remote or the batteries are dead, forget it. A tip for anyone looking for investment (horrid word that): batteries. (i.e. companies that are making advances in battery technology) (remember in The Graduate: "Plastics.") -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From Laurence.Claydon at deluxedigital.co.uk Thu Mar 19 17:46:34 2009 From: Laurence.Claydon at deluxedigital.co.uk (Laurence Claydon) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 17:46:34 +0000 Subject: [Tig] Plasma Displays In-Reply-To: <38EDF6E7-67EC-4495-A553-BDC5FC49723F@colorist.org> References: <39EA469F166B7741B8E3305B5B58B4941972DA10@mpcosmail01.ad.mpc.local> <62DAB953E22F4F4C855BB91C6FABDDA504254E6F@NEVCSMAIL05.am.thmulti.com>, <38EDF6E7-67EC-4495-A553-BDC5FC49723F@colorist.org> Message-ID: Especially those new ones that charge in a millisecond and draw 10 million amps in doing so. I would invest in 'Chargers' also.... Laurence Claydon Deluxe Digital London From joe at xpldddgrm.com Thu Mar 19 18:52:53 2009 From: joe at xpldddgrm.com (Joe Beirne) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 14:52:53 -0400 Subject: [Tig] Plasma Displays In-Reply-To: References: <39EA469F166B7741B8E3305B5B58B4941972DA10@mpcosmail01.ad.mpc.local> <62DAB953E22F4F4C855BB91C6FABDDA504254E6F@NEVCSMAIL05.am.thmulti.com>, <38EDF6E7-67EC-4495-A553-BDC5FC49723F@colorist.org> Message-ID: At 5:46 PM +0000 3/19/09, Laurence Claydon wrote: > >Especially those new ones that charge in a millisecond and draw 10 >million amps in doing so. > >I would invest in 'Chargers' also.... Yes, particularly the kind you can crank. That would be the Collapsitarian play. -- Joe Beirne New York ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System. For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email ______________________________________________________________________ From rogerito at terra.com.br Thu Mar 19 22:10:08 2009 From: rogerito at terra.com.br (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Rog=E9rio_Moraes?=) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 19:10:08 -0300 Subject: [Tig] Working with dissolves on DaVinci 2k Message-ID: <001801c9a8df$776d8790$664896b0$@com.br> Now.... I have workarounds for this situtation, but they don´t deliver the best results, and really disturb me. Let´s say your grading a show or short feature, tape to tape, edited on-line, filled with image dissolves and you want to put very different gradings into each one. One, let´s say, has 3 keyers, a certain amount of defocus and the other has none of the above, or just a plain different grading, with a simple power window. I´m looking to alternatives for that, that don´t result in those awful popping windows and defocus. In my case, when I find myself in a middle of several image dissolves I try to work with the simplest color correction that works the best for all of the shots, and do minimal adjustments (using the basic grading from the first), to work in all the rest. Isn´t that a major drawback in the DaVinci? Looking for opinions All the Best Rogério From pickettscharge at hotmail.com Thu Mar 19 23:16:25 2009 From: pickettscharge at hotmail.com (Dave Pickett) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 19:16:25 -0400 Subject: [Tig] Working with dissolves on DaVinci 2k In-Reply-To: <001801c9a8df$776d8790$664896b0$@com.br> References: <001801c9a8df$776d8790$664896b0$@com.br> Message-ID: That situation is tricky and fortunately we are segueing to software grading that removes a lot of those linear drawbacks. In linear I have found that you have to dissolve any keys, defocus, windows, etc. not to "off" but to transparent and still "on". If you are flying 3 windows and defocus and a toolbox key or three you need to wind them all down in dissolve with everything qualified just not as tweaked or simply qualified unadjusted . If the second half of the dissolve contains yet another window then you need to have it on in the first half and set to transparent so it can dissolve into its effect while the others dissolve out of theirs or to a different area of the screen. The master resets above the joyballs helps a lot with this and/or copy out to in or vice versa. I have had to drag these "ghost" windows and keys through ten or more shots when the program is one dissolve into the next into the next. Of course its all up to us to decide what looks best in these transition circumstances. An even more fun time is with multiple split screens with the myriad of wipes or dissolves. And the old "give it to me pre-conformed" doesnt always get heeded. And I am sure there are a lot of ways to skin this cat but that's my usual approach. Oh and dont forget you can profile different aspects of dissolves to customize different slopes. And then get asked "is this downtime?" for having to go through all of this fun. Cheers, Dave Dave Pickett Colorist www.davepickett.com > From: rogerito at terra.com.br > To: tig at colorist.org > Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 19:10:08 -0300 > Subject: [Tig] Working with dissolves on DaVinci 2k > > 2203 subscribers as of March 2009 > Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG. > Cintel supports the TIG. > ==== > > > Now.... > > > > I have workarounds for this situtation, but they don´t deliver the best > results, and really disturb me. Let´s say your grading a show or short > feature, tape to tape, edited on-line, filled with image dissolves and you > want to put very different gradings into each one. One, let´s say, has 3 > keyers, a certain amount of defocus and the other has none of the above, or > just a plain different grading, with a simple power window. I´m looking to > alternatives for that, that don´t result in those awful popping windows and > defocus. In my case, when I find myself in a middle of several image > dissolves I try to work with the simplest color correction that works the > best for all of the shots, and do minimal adjustments (using the basic > grading from the first), to work in all the rest. Isn´t that a major > drawback in the DaVinci? Looking for opinions… > > > > All the Best > > > > Rogério > > _______________________________________________ > http://reels.colorist.org > http://www.colorist.org/wiki3 _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail® is up to 70% faster. Now good news travels really fast. http://windowslive.com/online/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_70faster_032009 From craig at optimus.com Thu Mar 19 23:19:59 2009 From: craig at optimus.com (Craig Leffel) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 18:19:59 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [Tig] Working with dissolves on DaVinci 2k In-Reply-To: <1321568451.684691237504566574.JavaMail.root@mx.optimus.com> Message-ID: <2061337164.684771237504798989.JavaMail.root@mx.optimus.com> Hello Rogerio - That whole situation is definitely a drawback to hardware based color correctors which is why there are so many alternative systems available now.... However, if a Davinci is all that you have to do your work with, you can still obviously do a lot - As for the situation you describe, it really comes down to having the tool "turned on" with null settings. If you leave up a power window, defocus, and maybe a few layers with windows... you can just leave them set to null until you need them. The tricky part comes in positioning them to where you need them, when you need them, and whether or not you should have turned on a square window as well.... In these situations, I am a big fan of the 1 frame mark. It's definitely a pain in the ass, but I find that most of it can be overcome by taking a look through the show before you start color correcting, predicting what you think you'll need, and being prepared to do it. I've done things in tape to tape with windows flying all around invisibly, that I never thought would work. Just takes a little planning... Good luck - Craig Leffel Rogerio wrote: I have workarounds for this situtation, but they don´t deliver the best results, and really disturb me. Let´s say your grading a show or short feature, tape to tape, edited on-line, filled with image dissolves and you want to put very different gradings into each one. One, let´s say, has 3 keyers, a certain amount of defocus and the other has none of the above, or just a plain different grading, with a simple power window. I´m looking to alternatives for that, that don´t result in those awful popping windows and defocus. In my case, when I find myself in a middle of several image dissolves I try to work with the simplest color correction that works the best for all of the shots, and do minimal adjustments (using the basic grading from the first), to work in all the rest. Isn´t that a major drawback in the DaVinci? Looking for opinions… From jdhouston at earthlink.net Fri Mar 20 06:22:23 2009 From: jdhouston at earthlink.net (Jim Houston) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 23:22:23 -0700 Subject: [Tig] Plasma Displays In-Reply-To: References: <28375BA0FC85BC4084C942D659F636E9175C7493@NYCCNDX02.cbsnewsenps.cbsnews.net> Message-ID: <1DCF3287-6CC9-4B76-844F-C7135F8B874F@earthlink.net> On Mar 15, 2009, at 8:46 AM, Bob Friesenhahn wrote: > but now I see that people are accepting of Plasma, which is surely a > less suitable technology than DLP, LCOS, or even LCD. Most experts > would score Plasma dead-last when it comes to stability and accuracy. Stability yes. But much more acceptable for color viewing than LCOS/ LCD because plasma doesn't have the viewing angle/polarization issues which make the colors on a 50" LCD look different between the center and the sides (and worse when moving the view angle up and down.. so always make sure you are seated at the same eye position and angle to an LCD). Plasma are not really that much more unstable than CRTs were 20 years ago, so if you check them enough after they have warmed up, they are acceptable. DLPs are good too, but really only useful in the three chip digital projectors. The noise in most LCDs is too great for close viewing whereas Plasmas are also very decent in that respect. I used the dual HD-SDI adaptor on Panasonic 50" plasmas for all of our color checking at a post facility and had generally good results. [I still wish for a good reference grade color monitor panel, but they don't exist yet. I have seen prototypes that are very promising for later this year, so I expect the problem to become less of an issue over time.] Jim Starwatcher Digital From ken at flight4.org Fri Mar 20 02:51:07 2009 From: ken at flight4.org (Ken Robinson) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 23:51:07 -0300 Subject: [Tig] Film versus Red. In-Reply-To: <001801c9a8df$776d8790$664896b0$@com.br> References: <001801c9a8df$776d8790$664896b0$@com.br> Message-ID: <016301c9a906$b9c5dda0$6600a8c0@flight4> I was sent this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=co1euIHM_XY&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.facebook.co m%2Finbox%2Freadmessage.php%3Ft%3D1018684799474&feature=player_embedded ken robinson Argentina GSM: +54 9 2941 637570 From richm at davsys.com Fri Mar 20 13:01:13 2009 From: richm at davsys.com (Rich Moscoso) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 09:01:13 -0400 Subject: [Tig] Working with dissolves on DaVinci 2k In-Reply-To: <001801c9a8df$776d8790$664896b0$@com.br> References: <001801c9a8df$776d8790$664896b0$@com.br> Message-ID: <090AABB6E4E8BD4D9E38C93EF065450501CE7288@exg01.davsys.com> Hi Rogerio, One thing to check/verify is that the "Smart Ripple" function is enabled in your Config, you can find it in the Interface Setup of the 2K. Also, if your 2K has Colortrace, any changes in the EDL for that t-t session, you will be able to "re-load" the EDL, the 2K will know that the session/edl are "tied" together and will re-adjust the Session to the EDL keeping the Color correction with the scene and adjust dissolves, etc. Also, verify that your Dissolve Profiles begin at "1", in older versions of 2K software, the default was set to "0", and 0 for our dissolve profiles is a Cut, which in turn appear as a "pop". Regards, =================== Rich Moscoso Field Service Engineer daVinci Systems From tkvenezuela at hotmail.com Fri Mar 20 14:31:00 2009 From: tkvenezuela at hotmail.com (Ricardo Acosta) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 14:31:00 +0000 Subject: [Tig] keykode Message-ID: Hello: What is the best system to transfer dailies using an Ursa-daVinci 888? Actually I have the Evertz 4015 and TLC2, but both are not in very good condition. What about the Aaton Keylink? Thank you: Ricardo Acosta, Colorista Director. Telecine de Venezuela, Caracas. _________________________________________________________________ Drag n’ drop—Get easy photo sharing with Windows Live™ Photos. http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowslive/products/photos.aspx From hdcolorist at gmail.com Fri Mar 20 15:42:57 2009 From: hdcolorist at gmail.com (G. Conners) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 10:42:57 -0500 Subject: [Tig] Working with dissolves on DaVinci 2k In-Reply-To: <001801c9a8df$776d8790$664896b0$@com.br> References: <001801c9a8df$776d8790$664896b0$@com.br> Message-ID: <9c3211740903200842r11cfa9canc8c777baf571b299@mail.gmail.com> Rogerio, I'm running a 2K Plus and also see this issue, it looks like the best ways to fix this have been covered by others. You should make sure the dissolve profile set to 1 & that Smart Ripple is enabled, that is supposed to take care of this problem but often for me it doesn't work. I have gotten in the habit of copying over the windows, Toolbox effects & Kilovector's or whatever is popping into the next scene and nulling out all the values. Windows or whatever will still be on but empty, once you clear out a scene of corrections do a copy out to in with the windows to make sure the values are the same inside & outside. Since the windows are now empty you can often turn these windows or effects off in the middle of the scene with a mark so you don't have to carry them through numerous dissolves till you reach a cut. There are times when even with doing all of the above you will still see a pop in the dissolve, if that happens park the film or tape somewhere in the dissolve and disable then enable the dissolve again. I made a macro to copy the previous corrections into the dissolve to take care of this issue. Craig is right about putting mark in the beginning of a dissolve to turn on or off the windows, keys , Kv's . If it's just a window that's used in the scene following a dissolve there is no need for the extra mark. It helps if it's a short dissolve and each frame is a big change from the last, usually nobody will notice something popping on or off if the scene change is a big one. Good luck Greg Greg Conners, Color Grading Artist http://www.linkedin.com/in/gconners My Profile http://www.imdb.com/name/nm2178122/ www.mvipost.com hdcolorist at gmail.com greg.c at mvipost.com 703-536-7678 "TV is chewing gum for the eyes." Frank Lloyd Wright From sklein54 at earthlink.net Fri Mar 20 15:17:07 2009 From: sklein54 at earthlink.net (sklein54 at earthlink.net) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 08:17:07 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [Tig] Working with dissolves on DaVinci 2k Message-ID: <26367517.1237562227741.JavaMail.root@elwamui-cypress.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Hello Rogerio. The system will do what you ask and it is all good if one follows the guidelines. How many of us have forgotten long ago the torrent of swear-words that goes with learning the rules of coloring already-assembled cross-dissolves in 2K and earlier DaVinci systems? Many colorists have hot-keys programmed for placing the corresponding power-tier channel's ungraded power-window template somewhere upstream of the "B" side of the dissolve to the shot that needs the window (this must be in place for the dissolve to play through with no pop.) This holds true for Defocus also. You might get creative with your dissolve start and end points according to the material and the nature of the change you're trying to make, possibly nesting it further inside the overlap area. (Grandpop always said a dissolve that you can see over relatively static footage is cheezier than a Member's only jacket.) Many times I have bi-sected a dissolve in the middle and placed a mark to pull the grade in a better direction. When all is said and done if what you are trying to do is too extreme the shots need to be opened up into elements you can color on their own and then recombined. Good luck. From jpo at prestodigital.ca Fri Mar 20 15:59:29 2009 From: jpo at prestodigital.ca (Joe Owens) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 09:59:29 -0600 Subject: [Tig] Film versus Red. In-Reply-To: <016301c9a906$b9c5dda0$6600a8c0@flight4> References: <001801c9a8df$776d8790$664896b0$@com.br> <016301c9a906$b9c5dda0$6600a8c0@flight4> Message-ID: > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=co1euIHM_XY&eurl=http%3A%2F% > 2Fwww.facebook.co > m%2Finbox%2Freadmessage.php%3Ft% > 3D1018684799474&feature=player_embedded > (Shooting beer out of my nose, LOL) The only salvation we might have is to tar the RED system with the same brush as HDV and, well... all DV, really. I've noticed it causes concern among people who have the word "quality" in their vocabularies when the issues about what is "4K" and what isn't, is framed within the Bayer paradigm. And if it isn't really 4:4:4, then what is it? 2:1:1? Which is closer to the physical truth, aside from all the mathematical trickery. Joe Owens Presto!Digital Colourgrade 302-9664 106 Avenue Edmonton, Alberta T5H0N4 +1 780 421-9980 jpo at prestodigital.ca From rob at cinelab.com Fri Mar 20 16:01:53 2009 From: rob at cinelab.com (Robert Houllahan) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 12:01:53 -0400 Subject: [Tig] keykode In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > What is the best system to transfer dailies using an Ursa-daVinci > 888? Actually I have the Evertz 4015 and TLC2, but both are not in > very good condition. What about the Aaton Keylink? > Thank you: We have two Aaton Keylink system and if they are properly aligned to the telecine they are very easy to use and 100% accurate. i suggest a Pass-1 Pass-2 workflow with keylink instead of on the fly. -Rob- Robert Houllahan rob at cinelab.com Filmmaker Vp Cinelab Inc. www.cinelab.com From underscan at gmail.com Fri Mar 20 18:16:34 2009 From: underscan at gmail.com (underscan at gmail.com) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 19:16:34 +0100 Subject: [Tig] Panasonic LCD Message-ID: hi can someone please comment on the Panasonic LH2550?! i got it offered instead of the HP Dreamcolor and am a bit confused now. any opinions? or a Plasma ; ) cheerz mark -- underscan films | berlin From weagles at bigpond.net.au Fri Mar 20 23:28:30 2009 From: weagles at bigpond.net.au (warren eagles) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2009 09:28:30 +1000 Subject: [Tig] Working with dissolves on DaVinci 2K In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In very simple terms. You have a picture dissolve where you need a window on the 2nd half of the dissolve. Grade the first shot using SV primaries Make a window and correct on the 2nd shot using the SV primary controls Copy the grade to Mem A Back up to shot 1, make sure you only have the SV window selected in the Mona Lista display, hit Mem A, the new window and color will all be wrong, the window has to stay active, so place the cursor inside the window and use the master and RGB resets above the Joyballs to reset the color. The window should now be active but invisible and your original Primary correction on shot 1 shouldn't have changed. The dissolve will now be smooth if not park in the middle of the dissolve and hit the dissolve key this will profile the dissolve and the change will be smooth. Warren Eagles Freelance Colourist FXPHD.COM Resolve Professor From rob at colorist.org Sat Mar 21 17:36:05 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2009 19:36:05 +0200 Subject: [Tig] dissolves. Apple COLOR. Message-ID: <7038F8EB-F97F-420B-B86F-B70763D00F48@colorist.org> continuing the thread about dissolves (dynamics), I've run up against a problem in Apple COLOR with regard to dissolves when applying curves. It seems impossible to implement a dissolve when changing a curve. can anyone comment? thanks. -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From rob at colorist.org Sat Mar 21 18:06:28 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2009 20:06:28 +0200 Subject: [Tig] NAB presence; TIG Classifieds Message-ID: Here we have the latest in NAB presence for those who would want to see what's up at NAB Las Vegas 2009 http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3/index.php/TIGNABFS09 DIgital Vision Cintel Autodesk FilmLight FSI apparently these are the only manufacturers ready to submit information or appearing at NAB. on another subject, these are the latest headlines from the TIG classifieds at http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3/index.php/Classifieds Rich Montez: Freelance Colorist, Consultant, Trainer Kevin Shaw: Freelance Colorist, Instructor and Consultant Stuart Blake Jones - Freelance Colorist-Consultant-Instructor-Writer Herbert Butler - Assistant Colourist and Conform Editor and, equipment available: Da Vinci Resolve RT Available for sale daVinci 2K Plus CINTEL RASCAL & DAVINCI 2k COLOR CORRECTOR TTR 4x1 portable HD-SDI router available for sale Rob TIG admin.founder -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From jpo at prestodigital.ca Sat Mar 21 18:26:56 2009 From: jpo at prestodigital.ca (Joe Owens) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2009 12:26:56 -0600 Subject: [Tig] dissolves. Apple COLOR. In-Reply-To: <7038F8EB-F97F-420B-B86F-B70763D00F48@colorist.org> References: <7038F8EB-F97F-420B-B86F-B70763D00F48@colorist.org> Message-ID: <051F4EBB-8391-471A-A48D-7B8033E80F9C@prestodigital.ca> > > continuing the thread about dissolves (dynamics), I've run up > against a problem in > Apple COLOR with regard to dissolves when applying curves. It > seems impossible to > implement a dissolve when changing a curve. > > can anyone comment? > Your friendly APPLE COLOR trouble shooter here. That's right, its a failing. You cannot keyframe the Primary or Secondary curves. The HSL curves in secondaries cannot be vignetted. There are two workarounds. One can be done inside COLOR, and the other depends on FCP. Approach A is to use HSL qualifiers in the secondaries instead of the HSL curves... but in Primary In/Out, the curves are simply off-limits if you want a dynamic grade transition. You are forced to use the 3- way sliders (if you don't have a ring-and-ball panel). Unthinkable in daVinci, but as Buzz Lightyear put it.... "We're not on my planet, are we...." . FCP workflow is to do two complete grade passes on the designated clip, render, export, and do the dynamic on the FCP timeline. There are issues within the axial/radial dynamic interpolation that might force you to do this anyway. Joe Owens Presto!Digital Colourgrade 302-9664 106 Avenue Edmonton, Alberta T5H0N4 +1 780 421-9980 jpo at prestodigital.ca From rob at colorist.org Sun Mar 22 12:53:39 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2009 14:53:39 +0200 Subject: [Tig] restoration of 70mm stills (NASA) Message-ID: an intriguing story about the restoration of 50-year old stills from NASA and what it took to salvage a tape machine to do it: http://tinyurl.com/cgk36d -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From steve.roberts at bbc.co.uk Mon Mar 23 07:49:02 2009 From: steve.roberts at bbc.co.uk (Steve Roberts - Post Production) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2009 07:49:02 -0000 Subject: [Tig] restoration of 70mm stills (NASA) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <244E9A3A7711D64DBF9C99CE1DFA9EB004B6BD8A@bbcxue218.national.core.bbc.co.uk> There's a more technical blog of the engineering work done to recover these images here: http://www.moonviews.com/archives/2009/02/lunar_orbiter_image_recovery_p _1.html I didn't find navigation intuitive - the next section is accessed via the link near the top of the page! Steve Roberts | Senior Engineer | BBC Resources Room 3501 | BBC Television Centre | Wood Lane | London | W12 7RJ T: +44 (0)20 857 64556 | F: +44 (0)20 857 61639 http://www.bbcresources.com BBC Resources Limited Registered Number 3593793 England Registered Office: Television Centre, Wood Lane, London W12 7RJ From ramona at spectsoft.com Mon Mar 23 15:36:27 2009 From: ramona at spectsoft.com (Ramona Howard) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2009 08:36:27 -0700 Subject: [Tig] restoration of 70mm stills (NASA) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200903230836.27549.ramona@spectsoft.com> On Sunday 22 March 2009 5:53:39 am Rob Lingelbach wrote: > an intriguing story about the restoration of 50-year old stills from > NASA and what it took to salvage a tape machine to do it: I know they are bringing miles and miles of film back on-line, because they are using Raves in the Telecine process but this project is really cool. Thanks for the info. Ramona -- Ramona Howard Oakdale, Ca 95361 209 847-7812 ext 104 www.spectsoft.com Co-founder of SpectSoft, makers of the Rave product line. From rob at colorist.org Mon Mar 23 17:16:02 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2009 19:16:02 +0200 Subject: [Tig] restoration of 70mm stills (NASA) In-Reply-To: <200903230836.27549.ramona@spectsoft.com> References: <200903230836.27549.ramona@spectsoft.com> Message-ID: <14B3F0EB-F284-431E-99AA-4F73124B9E3C@colorist.org> On Mar 23, 2009, at 5:36 PM, Ramona Howard wrote: > > I know they are bringing miles and miles of film back on-line, > because they > are using Raves in the Telecine process but this project is really > cool. I think there were darkrooms on board the spacecraft (!) and something that scanned (!!) the negatives that then were beamed (!!!) back to earth. All without integrated circuits (!!!!) -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From rob at colorist.org Mon Mar 23 17:31:50 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2009 19:31:50 +0200 Subject: [Tig] restoration of 70mm stills (NASA) In-Reply-To: <200903230836.27549.ramona@spectsoft.com> References: <200903230836.27549.ramona@spectsoft.com> Message-ID: I had forgotten, but Nils Lind Petersen reminded me that David Bernstein had posted about this project back in January, in the TIG archives at: http://tig.colorist.org/pipermail/tig/2009-January/015230.html I'm not sure you would call the 2" tapes video, I would guess they were data only, could be wrong. -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From ted at tedlangdell.com Mon Mar 23 17:59:56 2009 From: ted at tedlangdell.com (Ted Langdell) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2009 10:59:56 -0700 Subject: [Tig] restoration of 70mm stills (NASA) In-Reply-To: <14B3F0EB-F284-431E-99AA-4F73124B9E3C@colorist.org> References: <200903230836.27549.ramona@spectsoft.com> <14B3F0EB-F284-431E-99AA-4F73124B9E3C@colorist.org> Message-ID: <69742235-85B1-4359-883E-9AEBB0066CCC@tedlangdell.com> On Mar 23, 2009, at 10:16 AM, Rob Lingelbach wrote: > On Mar 23, 2009, at 5:36 PM, Ramona Howard wrote: > >> >> I know they are bringing miles and miles of film back on-line, >> because they >> are using Raves in the Telecine process but this project is really >> cool. > > I think there were darkrooms on board the spacecraft (!) and > something that > scanned (!!) the negatives that then were beamed (!!!) back to > earth. All without > integrated circuits (!!!!) > > -- > Rob Lingelbach The Kodak built camera/processing/scanning system used a polaroid type process to handle the film images, then an analog scanner to turn the film content into electronic signals beamed to earth and recorded on the Ampex FR-900's that are being restored and used for the recovery. The camera system has particulars that haven't been exceeded since. Dennis Wingo is discussing the project at the Lunar and Planetary Science Conference in Texas this morning. http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/lpsc2009/ See more about that http://www.moonviews.com/ and scroll down to the March 21, 2009 blog post: Newly Restored "Picture of the Century": Lunar Orbiter 2's View of Copernicus A recovered image of Copernicus is linked there. The recovery of data from these tapes has some other potential implications. As noted on the NASA page for the project, http://lunarscience.arc.nasa.gov/articles/lunar-orbiter-image-recovery-project-update images the Lunar Orbiter took of Earth clearly show the icepack(s) that existed in August of 1996. "The detailed Lunar Orbiter 1-102H-2 image shows the edge of the Antarctic ice pack on August 23, 1966, near its September peak. Photo here: http://www.moonviews.com/archives/2009/03/what_lunar_orbiter_1_was_seein.html It may be feasible, and less expensive, for SMD to put modest size telescopes on the Moon at the polar outpost for Earth climate monitoring. There have been ideas for looking outward from the Moon, but we may also want to use telescopes to look back at the Earth; the Lunar Orbiter 24” telescope accomplished this without even trying! The team is also working with the National Snow and Ice Data Center (NSIDC) to correlate their images of the Earth with Nimbus I and Nimbus II that flew at about the same time. The original Nimbus images may have been recorded on an FR-900; by processing the original Nimbus 2” tapes there is a very good chance that they can provide NASA with polar ice pack data from ten years earlier." This project represents the "tip of the iceberg" of what kind of valuable stuff the space program components brought into being... and that are of continuing value as scientific tools to help us understand environment changes among other things. They also represent photographic, electronic and mechanical works of art, and objects that define a particular high-point in American culture. Ted Secretary for the QuadVideotapeGroup.com: Preserving Tape, Equipment and the Knowledge to use them, in conjunction with the Library of Congress ted at quadvideotapegroup.com From ramona at spectsoft.com Mon Mar 23 18:04:27 2009 From: ramona at spectsoft.com (Ramona Howard) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2009 11:04:27 -0700 Subject: [Tig] restoration of 70mm stills (NASA) In-Reply-To: <14B3F0EB-F284-431E-99AA-4F73124B9E3C@colorist.org> References: <200903230836.27549.ramona@spectsoft.com> <14B3F0EB-F284-431E-99AA-4F73124B9E3C@colorist.org> Message-ID: <200903231104.27266.ramona@spectsoft.com> On Monday 23 March 2009 10:16:02 am Rob Lingelbach wrote: > I think there were darkrooms on board the spacecraft (!) and something > that scanned (!!) the negatives that then were beamed (!!!) back to earth. > All without integrated circuits (!!!!) All I know is there are lots of physical film rolls from something :) I didn't get to go to Houston, Jason did... Cheers, Ramona -- Ramona Howard Oakdale, Ca 95361 209 847-7812 ext 104 www.spectsoft.com Co-founder of SpectSoft, makers of the Rave product line. From rob at colorist.org Mon Mar 23 18:13:02 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2009 20:13:02 +0200 Subject: [Tig] restoration of 70mm stills (NASA) In-Reply-To: <69742235-85B1-4359-883E-9AEBB0066CCC@tedlangdell.com> References: <200903230836.27549.ramona@spectsoft.com> <14B3F0EB-F284-431E-99AA-4F73124B9E3C@colorist.org> <69742235-85B1-4359-883E-9AEBB0066CCC@tedlangdell.com> Message-ID: On Mar 23, 2009, at 7:59 PM, Ted Langdell wrote: > They also represent photographic, electronic and mechanical works of > art, and objects that define a particular high-point in American > culture. ah yes, the Cold War, scrambling to get under my desk at school during drills, locating the nearest fallout shelter.. :) (I realize, you said American culture.) (and Henry Miller would have something to say about that too. :p ) Tolstoy's definition of work of art: "that which conveys the author's feelings." If the craters on the moon are random in nature (not necessarily so, if you consider the relatively stable orbit) could one use data on the craters to create a sophisticated encryption algorithm.. or would you just end up with a likeness of Moon Zappa. -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From ted at tedlangdell.com Mon Mar 23 18:21:07 2009 From: ted at tedlangdell.com (Ted Langdell) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2009 11:21:07 -0700 Subject: [Tig] restoration of 70mm stills (NASA) In-Reply-To: References: <200903230836.27549.ramona@spectsoft.com> Message-ID: <94BC8855-FD2A-4BC1-AAB5-8E59ADE83386@tedlangdell.com> On Mar 23, 2009, at 10:31 AM, Rob Lingelbach wrote: > I had forgotten, but Nils Lind Petersen reminded me that David > Bernstein had posted about this > project back in January, in the TIG archives at: > > http://tig.colorist.org/pipermail/tig/2009-January/015230.html > > I'm not sure you would call the 2" tapes video, I would guess they > were data only, could be wrong. > > -- > Rob Lingelbach They are Data. The recordings were made using an outgrowth of Quad's "transverse" scan technology, and the FR-900 heads were/are being rebuilt by the only company still rebuilding Quad heads... VideoMagnetics in Colorado Springs. I visited there early this month. Owner Tony Korte showed me around. Fascinating place in its own right, with a variety of Quad decks used to test the heads after rebuilding. They'll be exhibiting at NAB and will likely have some stories to tell. Ted Langdell Secretary for the QuadVideotapeGroup.com: Preserving Tape, Equipment and the Knowledge to use them, in conjunction with the Library of Congress ted at quadvideotapegroup.com From ted at tedlangdell.com Mon Mar 23 18:26:19 2009 From: ted at tedlangdell.com (Ted Langdell) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2009 11:26:19 -0700 Subject: [Tig] Camera used on Lunar Orbiter (was restoration of 70mm stills (NASA)) In-Reply-To: <69742235-85B1-4359-883E-9AEBB0066CCC@tedlangdell.com> References: <200903230836.27549.ramona@spectsoft.com> <14B3F0EB-F284-431E-99AA-4F73124B9E3C@colorist.org> <69742235-85B1-4359-883E-9AEBB0066CCC@tedlangdell.com> Message-ID: <8E42823F-6953-4E83-9FDC-D3F593EBE90F@tedlangdell.com> On Mar 23, 2009, at 10:59 AM, Ted Langdell wrote: > The Kodak built camera/processing/scanning system used a polaroid > type process to handle the film images, then an analog scanner to > turn the film content into electronic signals beamed to earth and > recorded on the Ampex FR-900's that are being restored and used for > the recovery. Here's a link to a George Eastman House Podcast that describes the camera system used. http://podcast.eastmanhouse.org/the-lunar-orbiter-camera/ As Spock would likely say... "Fascinating." For a number of reasons. Ted Ted Langdell Secretary for the QuadVideotapeGroup.com: Preserving Tape, Equipment and the Knowledge to use them, in conjunction with the Library of Congress ted at quadvideotapegroup.com From rob at colorist.org Mon Mar 23 18:31:33 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2009 20:31:33 +0200 Subject: [Tig] Camera used on Lunar Orbiter (was restoration of 70mm stills (NASA)) In-Reply-To: <8E42823F-6953-4E83-9FDC-D3F593EBE90F@tedlangdell.com> References: <200903230836.27549.ramona@spectsoft.com> <14B3F0EB-F284-431E-99AA-4F73124B9E3C@colorist.org> <69742235-85B1-4359-883E-9AEBB0066CCC@tedlangdell.com> <8E42823F-6953-4E83-9FDC-D3F593EBE90F@tedlangdell.com> Message-ID: <645BB741-3477-4B7E-8EE7-927E3BA40487@colorist.org> On Mar 23, 2009, at 8:26 PM, Ted Langdell wrote: > > Here's a link to a George Eastman House Podcast that describes the > camera system used. > > http://podcast.eastmanhouse.org/the-lunar-orbiter-camera/ the astronauts who walked on the moon carried, I believe, Hasselblad 500CMs. I had the chance to use one a few times in 1971, and the viewfinder astonished me in its brightness and clarity. -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us Mon Mar 23 18:41:12 2009 From: bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us (Bob Friesenhahn) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2009 13:41:12 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [Tig] restoration of 70mm stills (NASA) In-Reply-To: <69742235-85B1-4359-883E-9AEBB0066CCC@tedlangdell.com> References: <200903230836.27549.ramona@spectsoft.com> <14B3F0EB-F284-431E-99AA-4F73124B9E3C@colorist.org> <69742235-85B1-4359-883E-9AEBB0066CCC@tedlangdell.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 23 Mar 2009, Ted Langdell wrote: > > "The detailed Lunar Orbiter 1-102H-2 image shows the edge of the Antarctic > ice pack on August 23, 1966, near its September peak. > > Photo here: > http://www.moonviews.com/archives/2009/03/what_lunar_orbiter_1_was_seein.html It seems strange to me that the (should be) monochrome image (entitled "What Lunar Orbiter 1 Was Seeing on 23 August 1966") shows blue oceans, gray dirt, and country boundaries. This does not seem like what Lunar Orbiter 1 would have captured. What's up with that? Bob -- Bob Friesenhahn bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/ GraphicsMagick Maintainer, http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/ From rob at colorist.org Mon Mar 23 18:44:11 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2009 20:44:11 +0200 Subject: [Tig] Camera used on Lunar Orbiter (was restoration of 70mm stills (NASA)) In-Reply-To: <8E42823F-6953-4E83-9FDC-D3F593EBE90F@tedlangdell.com> References: <200903230836.27549.ramona@spectsoft.com> <14B3F0EB-F284-431E-99AA-4F73124B9E3C@colorist.org> <69742235-85B1-4359-883E-9AEBB0066CCC@tedlangdell.com> <8E42823F-6953-4E83-9FDC-D3F593EBE90F@tedlangdell.com> Message-ID: <8ABE8FDF-D20C-492F-98ED-33D4D5E00621@colorist.org> On Mar 23, 2009, at 8:26 PM, Ted Langdell wrote: > Here's a link to a George Eastman House Podcast that describes the > camera system used. > > http://podcast.eastmanhouse.org/the-lunar-orbiter-camera/ > > As Spock would likely say... "Fascinating." yes, absolutely fascinating, though I would have preferred in the podcast a little less flag-waving. the technology is incredible, for its time. The bimat system... analog scanner... (I take exception to the statement that Velcro is "space-age material") -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From rob at colorist.org Mon Mar 23 18:46:42 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2009 20:46:42 +0200 Subject: [Tig] restoration of 70mm stills (NASA) In-Reply-To: References: <200903230836.27549.ramona@spectsoft.com> <14B3F0EB-F284-431E-99AA-4F73124B9E3C@colorist.org> <69742235-85B1-4359-883E-9AEBB0066CCC@tedlangdell.com> Message-ID: On Mar 23, 2009, at 8:41 PM, Bob Friesenhahn wrote: > It seems strange to me that the (should be) monochrome image > (entitled "What Lunar Orbiter 1 Was Seeing on 23 August 1966") shows > blue oceans, gray dirt, and country boundaries. This does not seem > like what Lunar Orbiter 1 would have captured. What's up with that? colorist. FX. though, if one were to believe the commentary, there actually were and are, yellow walls between countries in Africa. -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From rob at colorist.org Wed Mar 25 15:14:49 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2009 17:14:49 +0200 Subject: [Tig] new classifieds Message-ID: these are among some new classified ads at http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3/index.php/Classifieds Wanted * Ampex AVR1, AVR2s needed We are looking for Ampex AVR1's and AVR2's in any condition.. Myron Lenenski CinePost 2160 Kingston Ct. Ste.N Marietta, GA 30067 678-238-0800 www.posthouse.com 404-784-1771 (cell) [20090320np] * DI Colorist, Mid-US Midwest Digital Intermediate facility seeking DI Colorist with strong reel. Film department w/Spirit 2K Datacine and Pablo on iQ, filmSAN, design/vfx department and finishing. About us: Milagro Post provides turnkey services to the independent film, advertising and web community. We create and deliver content for cinema, TV, web and mobile. Please send resumes and links to reels available online to: michaels at milagropost.com [20090325p] * COLORISTS WANTED @ KI My name is Vincent S. Lyons and I am the Vice – President @ KI. We have recently purchased a Quantel Pablo Neo 4k and are looking to pursue relationships with Colorists. If you are a Colorists with Pablo experience or a Colorists that would like to learn the Pablo Neo please give me a call. Regards, Vincent Vincent S. Lyons Vice President 3575 Cahuenga Blvd. West Suite 640 Hollywood, CA 90068 Tel. (323) 874-4000 x14 Fax (323) 874-4555 vincent at kihollywood.com http://www.kihollywood.com [20090325np] -- Rob Lingelbach TIG admin.founder rob at colorist.org From pickettscharge at hotmail.com Thu Mar 26 21:51:37 2009 From: pickettscharge at hotmail.com (Dave Pickett) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 17:51:37 -0400 Subject: [Tig] What color is it in here? Message-ID: How is it that night became blue? That the 70's were green and happiness is red? ABC's Life on Mars is a lot of fun because of Keitel and Imperioli. And its set in the 70's and its green. I grew up in the seventies and besides the avocado refrigerator it wasnt very green to go through. And actual night is basically mono depending on the ambient light and moon phase. And then everyone likes reddish tones to convey a happier story. I am starting to wonder how these color conventions evolved. Dave Dave Pickett Colorist www.davepickett.com www.colorbayinc.com From BTopazio at company3.com Fri Mar 27 12:03:11 2009 From: BTopazio at company3.com (Bill Topazio) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 08:03:11 -0400 Subject: [Tig] What color is it in here? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8B0BA2808E4CEA47B36553F01A9EC63402033A5C@harbor250ex2.corp.ad> I think night blue is a function of mesopic vision, where the rods are just starting to kick in, and are more sensitive in the blue wavelengths. So there's a natural resonance with viewing blue-cast scenes that makes us relate them to nighttime. In the 70s I guess if you didn't like avocado your only other choice was coppertone! (my fridge was turquoise- try finding THAT after 1963). LOM is a lot of fun- too bad it's going to finish up the season and fly off into the night. Bill Topazio Engineering COMPANY 3 / METHOD NEW YORK 545 Fifth Avenue, New York, NY 10017 212-687-4000 212-907-1225 direct 917-881-0172 cell 212-907-1270 fax www.company3.com / www.methodstudios.com From ken at flight4.org Fri Mar 27 11:06:02 2009 From: ken at flight4.org (Ken Robinson) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 08:06:02 -0300 Subject: [Tig] What color is it in here? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <016901c9aecc$085e9ef0$6500a8c0@flight4> Do you mean these guys? http://www.colormarketing.org/ ken robinson From arlene at creativepostinc.com Fri Mar 27 13:02:45 2009 From: arlene at creativepostinc.com (arlene at creativepostinc.com) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 09:02:45 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Tig] Final Colour Correction Message-ID: <3440.66.207.206.210.1238158965.squirrel@webmail.beanfield.com> What are the benefits/drawbacks of colour correcting a tv series(broadcast not theater release) shot on the Red Camera using Final Cut Colour with colour panel vs. Red Cine vs. Quantel? Does anybody recommend any other colour correction system? Thanks, Arlene From andrew.huebscher at gmail.com Fri Mar 27 13:50:43 2009 From: andrew.huebscher at gmail.com (Andrew Huebscher) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 06:50:43 -0700 Subject: [Tig] Panasonic TH-50PF11UK with dual-link HDSDI Message-ID: Hi TIG, First time poster here. I'm setting up a new Panasonic TH50PF11UK plasma with the dual-link HDSDI input board. I'm wondering if I need to do anything special to activate the dual-link RGB 4:4:4 mode. When I send a signal, I get an image that looks as though it's only seeing the A channel (SMPTE bars have a green wash). I've triple-checked my connections, and can confirm my source is working on separate display. There's nothing in the manuals that specify how to do this -- it appears it's supposed to auto-detect. Thank you in advance, Andrew Huebscher DP/colorist Los Angeles, CA From jfmann at optimum.net Fri Mar 27 13:53:24 2009 From: jfmann at optimum.net (Jim Mann) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 09:53:24 -0400 Subject: [Tig] filmlight BLT Event In-Reply-To: References: <28375BA0FC85BC4084C942D659F636E9175C7493@NYCCNDX02.cbsnewsenps.cbsnews.net> Message-ID: <001001c9aee3$6696fc30$33c4f490$@net> I'll take mine with Mayo, Please. I have added the Baselight BLT (New York) event to the TIG calendar, SEE: http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3/index.php/Calendars:TIG_main No word that they will be serving BLT's sandwiches. Regards, Jim Jim Mann Colorist/daVinci Product Specialist [ POSTWORKS ] NEW YORK 100 Avenue of Americas, 10th Floor New York, NY 10013 T 212 894 4000 C 516-250-0909 F 212 941 0439 http://www.postworks.com http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3/index.php/User:Jim_Mann Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail. From mattwillisjones at gmail.com Fri Mar 27 14:06:53 2009 From: mattwillisjones at gmail.com (Matt Willis-Jones) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 15:06:53 +0100 Subject: [Tig] Final Colour Correction Message-ID: <95aec4d80903270706w1320aab7re335c2e6a5fbf7f7@mail.gmail.com> if running quantel v4 you have Red import - so MUCH quicker than having to essentially import your project twice (rec cine / alert / whatever + FCP) Quantel will render approx 33 times faster than Color with a primary only, 3 times faster with a primary and three secondaries. Quantel has more precise controls for color correction - although Color has perhaps more user friendly controls You can alter your edit with minimum headaches in Q - with FCP and Color this can turn into a nightmare (especially if clips share the same name and if you have any keyframes on masks etc) Generally speaking a quantel suite will be more pricey than the FCP / Color / Red Alert solution - so a large amount of your decision will be a budget vs deadline choice Although the quantel is great at being able to deal a long format programme i have run into problems in both FCP / color and Quantel in regards to the number of edits in the programme. In my experiecne the quantel doesn't like lots of quick cuts, where as Color doesn't like more than a certain number of edits regardless of frequency (you can work with about 30min of footage before its a problem) As an operator who has had to use both systems over the past 3 years I can safely say that I hate both of them. Really. A surprise alternative might be Combustion - although a more limited colour corrector than the other two systems, you can stack up multiple corrections without a problem - render times are similar to Color. automatic duck can translate FCP EDLs and the controls within Combustion 4 offer a 'best of both worlds' between Quantel and FCP, and only costs about $1,000. (i think) but i don't know about Red support with that... (and there's no 'control panel'... ) I have nothing to do with any of the above mentioned products blah blah blah... just spouting my own opinions from my own experience. Matt Willis-Jones Quantel eQ / Shake artist Oslo From dcorbitt77 at comcast.net Fri Mar 27 14:25:08 2009 From: dcorbitt77 at comcast.net (dcorbitt77 at comcast.net) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 14:25:08 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Tig] Panasonic TH-50PF11UK with dual-link HDSDI In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1668645230.110541238163908584.JavaMail.root@sz0137a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> We had this problem too. What the Panasonic is doing is looking for some kind of VANC code that describes the format (Single link 4:2:2 YPbPr or Dual link 4:4:4 RGB or Dual link 4:4:4 YPbPr). This is apparently something new and needs to be incorporated in your sources or the monitor will default to 4:2:2 YPbPr. There are no user accessible controls on the TH-50PF11UK to select the mode like there are on a Sony BVM with dual link inputs. If you are using Sony SRW machines as your sources, you have to get Sony to upgrade your machines to insert this code in the VANC. WE had to do that and it is all new to Sony. Once you do that, all works like magic. The monitor will automatically set up the dual link card to decode the incoming signal correctly. Dave Corbitt HBO Studios NYC From andrew.huebscher at gmail.com Fri Mar 27 15:11:46 2009 From: andrew.huebscher at gmail.com (Andrew Huebscher) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 08:11:46 -0700 Subject: [Tig] Panasonic TH-50PF11UK with dual-link HDSDI Message-ID: Thank you for the info. My source is a SCRATCH workstation using an nVidia QuadroFX 5600 with SDI option. Perhaps this is something that has to be written into the drivers of the graphics card. I'll investigate with nVidia. Andrew Huebscher DP/colorist Los Angeles, CA From bob at bluescreen.com Fri Mar 27 15:32:37 2009 From: bob at bluescreen.com (Bob Kertesz) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 08:32:37 -0700 Subject: [Tig] What color is it in here? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >How is it that night became blue? That the 70's were green and happiness is red? >I am starting to wonder how these color conventions evolved. Quite a bit of it had to do with a lot of DP's and directors doing a lot of drugs while shooting and editing music videos, although the night being blue has always been something of a mystery to me, since it predates music videos by several decades. Commercials always seemed to play it safe but looked on music videos as cutting edge stuff, and tried to emulate them in a toned down corporate sort of way for a long time. I can't tell you the number of production meetings I attended in the '70's and '80's where the example footage shown for the desired look was some off the wall music mess, with the agency wanting their spot "kind of like this, but, you know, cleaner". --Bob Bob Kertesz BlueScreen LLC Hollywood, California bob at bluescreen.com The Ultimate in ULTIMATTE® compositing. For details, visit http://www.bluescreen.com From bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us Fri Mar 27 16:05:47 2009 From: bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us (Bob Friesenhahn) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 11:05:47 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [Tig] What color is it in here? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 27 Mar 2009, Bob Kertesz wrote: > Commercials always seemed to play it safe but looked on music videos as > cutting edge stuff, and tried to emulate them in a toned down corporate sort Something I find really interesting is that (for maybe eight years now) advertisements to teenagers and twenty-somethings are using classic rock music from the '60s and '70s. The same is true for major motion pictures. In other words, music that their grandparents or aging parents listened to. Current modern artists are being largely ignored. The music video culture seems to have died now. I think that we are also seeing more use of colors which were popular in the '60s. Bob -- Bob Friesenhahn bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/ GraphicsMagick Maintainer, http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/ From jpo at prestodigital.ca Fri Mar 27 16:03:42 2009 From: jpo at prestodigital.ca (Joe Owens) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 10:03:42 -0600 Subject: [Tig] What color is it in here? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <73278651-2EEB-42F3-A29B-2E2448CE3EBD@prestodigital.ca> > I can't tell you the number of production meetings I > attended in the '70's and '80's where the example footage shown for > the > desired look was some off the wall music mess, with the agency > wanting their > spot "kind of like this, but, you know, cleaner". > I hear that. And now there is the "two-tone" look... etc,... I'm trying to find a reference among the two books that have looked at color academically "Questions of Colour in Cinema" (Wendy Everett) and "If its Purple..." (Bellantoni) for some sort of encoding or indexing of color assignment. Not having much luck yet... but it occurs to me that it might just be an accident that became common practice -- using incandescent balance, shooting daylight... its blue. Keep it. Joe Owens Presto!Digital Colourgrade 302-9664 106 Avenue Edmonton, Alberta T5H0N4 +1 780 421-9980 jpo at prestodigital.ca From rob at colorist.org Fri Mar 27 16:48:27 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 18:48:27 +0200 Subject: [Tig] What color is it in here? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mar 26, 2009, at 11:51 PM, Dave Pickett wrote: > How is it that night became blue? That the 70's were green and > happiness is red? I think shag carpets only came in green. I remember the old Redd Foxx building in Hollywood - don't know if it's still there... anyway it was done up in a kind of red velvet interior. I think a major film edit client bought the building in the 80s, someone might correct me. Was Redd Foxx happier as a result? (of the color, not the sale) the moon's albedo is bluish because of the earth's oceans, so there is some basis for moonlight being blue. -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From mlbnyc at verizon.net Fri Mar 27 16:59:51 2009 From: mlbnyc at verizon.net (Michael Bittle) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 12:59:51 -0400 Subject: [Tig] What color is it in here? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0CD863CC-63CF-436B-866C-BBD438644112@verizon.net> At a Grammy round table of music supervisors just this week, one of the panelists made the comment that directors tend to favor the music they remember from high school and college.... (I'm certainly partial to stuff in the '65-'75 window... but I'm no director) FWIW, Mike From ted at tedlangdell.com Fri Mar 27 16:59:23 2009 From: ted at tedlangdell.com (Ted Langdell) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 09:59:23 -0700 Subject: [Tig] What color is it in here? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1BCBECA1-AF03-4CEC-985D-B303AAAE7CF5@tedlangdell.com> On Mar 27, 2009, at 9:48 AM, Rob Lingelbach wrote: > I think shag carpets only came in green. Nah... I had yellow in where I lived in Sacramento 1979-83. It was likely 7-10 years old. I think carpet mills made out with shag... not as many threads per square inch, although they were longer than conventional carpet pile. Ted Ted Langdell flashscan8.us 209 East 12th Street Marysville, CA 95901 Main: (530) 741-1212 Cell: (530) 301-2931 Skype: TedLangdell From stipantim at yahoo.com Fri Mar 27 17:51:57 2009 From: stipantim at yahoo.com (Tim Stipan) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 10:51:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tig] Final Colour Correction In-Reply-To: <95aec4d80903270706w1320aab7re335c2e6a5fbf7f7@mail.gmail.com> References: <95aec4d80903270706w1320aab7re335c2e6a5fbf7f7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <390404.46206.qm@web56206.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Find a Scratch bay. You can work with the native R3D files. You can probably find a Scratch room cheaper then a Quantel bay and Scratch is a much better color tool then Color. My opinions are my own and in no way represent that of my employer. From dcorbitt77 at comcast.net Fri Mar 27 19:15:20 2009 From: dcorbitt77 at comcast.net (dcorbitt77 at comcast.net) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 19:15:20 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Tig] Panasonic TH-50PF11UK with dual-link HDSDI In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <416630192.267021238181320907.JavaMail.root@sz0137a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> The Panasonic Dual Link card will not work on SD signals. If you look at the specs, it is only good for HD-SDI and dual link HD-SDI. No format lower than 720P can be decoded. I think the VANC code is soemthing very new and most manufacturers have not yet adopted it. Panasonic has somewhat jumped the gun but it does work well provided you can find a source that supplies the new code. Dave Corbitt HBO Studios NYC From rcurrier at synthetic-ap.com Fri Mar 27 21:40:38 2009 From: rcurrier at synthetic-ap.com (Bob Currier) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 14:40:38 -0700 Subject: [Tig] What color is it in here? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20090327214038.2043203959@smarthost.coxmail.com> I always thought the "blue look" was because certain producers actually see things that way due to over-consumption of Vi agra. ----- Bob Currier rcurrier at synthetic-ap.com Synthetic Aperture voice: +1 949 493-3444 Helping Make Your Work Look Its Best fax: +1 949 203-2108 web: www.synthetic-ap.com From jdhouston at earthlink.net Sat Mar 28 23:33:09 2009 From: jdhouston at earthlink.net (Jim Houston) Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2009 16:33:09 -0700 Subject: [Tig] What color is it in here? In-Reply-To: <20090327214038.2043203959@smarthost.coxmail.com> References: <20090327214038.2043203959@smarthost.coxmail.com> Message-ID: <037EEA6D-B3DB-4BCD-AC98-1DA20368CB73@earthlink.net> Hmm, I know lots of producers who see 'red', but wasn't aware of the Viagra connection. Jim Houston Starwatcher Digital On Mar 27, 2009, at 2:40 PM, Bob Currier wrote: > I always thought the "blue look" was because certain producers > actually > see things that way due to over-consumption of Vi agra. > From filmcolourist at gmail.com Sun Mar 29 21:38:23 2009 From: filmcolourist at gmail.com (David Gibson) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 09:38:23 +1300 Subject: [Tig] What color is it in here? In-Reply-To: <037EEA6D-B3DB-4BCD-AC98-1DA20368CB73@earthlink.net> References: <20090327214038.2043203959@smarthost.coxmail.com> <037EEA6D-B3DB-4BCD-AC98-1DA20368CB73@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <8F92691E-5A75-4548-A202-AAC294E23523@gmail.com> Interestingly the original BBC version of "Life On Mars", has a far more refined look, more desat, subtle browns and mustard hues, tobacco stained - grim. It looks great for all that, it's just one of the things that disappointed me about the US remake, the whole green thing is very distracting and a case where the grading adds nothing to the viewing experience, which is a pity because Harvey is bloody good value. As for the 'blue' night, it's seems that has been happening since forever hasn't it, every old colour movie from the 60's and before that I can remember from my minds eye has a blue night scene, some more so then others, day light stock and the technicolour process perhaps...... dave gibson colourist digipost NZ From danmitre at yahoo.com Mon Mar 30 11:20:29 2009 From: danmitre at yahoo.com (Dan) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 03:20:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tig] Discovery Quick Frame by Sierra Message-ID: <497045.47438.qm@web36204.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hello Anybody can help with the setup or ID device LIST for a Quickframe Sierra Disk Recorder? I'm using it with Pogle Pandora..all cables are connected properly. My old one was broken, I've got another system which was used in NTSC before,I've managed to set it up for PAL and works perfectly fine as a VTR, but I need to set it up as a Still Store. I know that for Pandora the device ID is F120 but not sure if that the setting for all firmwares.. Thanks in advance! George Daniel Mitre Mobile : +971 504668243 From richard at filmlight.ltd.uk Mon Mar 30 14:49:01 2009 From: richard at filmlight.ltd.uk (Richard Kirk) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 14:49:01 +0100 Subject: [Tig] What color is it in here? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49D0CDCD.6020705@filmlight.ltd.uk> There are a couple of plausible reasons for night looking blue. Very little of the earth's reflected light comes back from the moon. If this were do, then we would be able to see detail in the regions of the moon that are not lit by the sun. Almost all of what we see is from the sun. The moon is also a dark grey, so the moon's colour is quite close to that of the sun. The larger of the two likely effects is the Purkinje effect. As we get down to scotopic illumination levels, we stop getting reliable information from the cones, and we start using the rod signals. There is an intermetiate (mesopic) illumination level where we are getting our luminance information from our rods, but any usable bits of colour information from the cones is stirred in too. The rods have a peak sensitivity of about 500nm, where our green cones peak at about 555nm. This shift tends to make blue things look lighter, and red things lo0ok darker. Try this yourself - take two objects, one red and another blue, and take them out into full moonlight. The blue one will look a lot lighter. The other effect comes from the shading of the twilight sky. The Rutherford scattering in the upper atmosphere is heavily biased towards short wavelengths. Red light probably is not scattered, but blue light may be scattered several times. We see the sky shading from blue to deep blue, and then to a black color: we can interpret this as a wedge with constant chroma and decreasing intensity, making the black sky have a 'feeling' of blue in it. Erwin Schroidinger worked on this sort of thing when he was an artillery officer, and it became part of his Privatdozent (sort-of PhD) thesis. 'American Night' (using tungsten-balanced film with natural light) is a good pre-digital trick. It gives a blue cast (too much of a blue cast, but you can't have everything) to the outdoor objects, and interior-lit parts of the scene (such as a view through a house window) will have warm, right looking colors. You have also boosted the brightness of the outdoor parts of the image, but the viewer won't notice that. I have a simulation of moonlight and starlight vision using eye-like parameters, and giving the right Purkinje boost to blues, and drop to reds. This gives a nice rendition of wholly outdoor scenes, but the scene with a view through a window needs an ordinary grade for the interior. Cheers. Richard Kirk -- FilmLight Ltd. Tel: +44 (0)20 7292 0400 or 0409 224 (direct) Artists House, Fax: +44 (0)20 7292 0401 14-15 Manette Street London W1D 4AP From rob at colorist.org Mon Mar 30 15:56:11 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 17:56:11 +0300 Subject: [Tig] What color is it in here? In-Reply-To: <49D0CDCD.6020705@filmlight.ltd.uk> References: <49D0CDCD.6020705@filmlight.ltd.uk> Message-ID: <70A16AEE-3B50-4AE0-B8D1-1B8CFBB6B8E2@colorist.org> On Mar 30, 2009, at 4:49 PM, Richard Kirk wrote: > There are a couple of plausible reasons for night looking blue. > > Very little of the earth's reflected light comes back from the moon. > If this were do, then we would be able to see detail in the regions > of the moon that are not lit by the sun. Almost all of what we see > is from the sun. The moon is also a dark grey, so the moon's colour > is quite close to that of the sun. If you're in a dark-sky site, there's a surprising amount of detail in the dark region of the thin crescent moon, visible to the naked eye and more so with optics, and it's an indication of the earth's albedo. Now I'll read carefully your references to Purkinje and Rutherford... I once made note to a client of what I wrongly called the "crepuscular" effect of light shining through human skin, which from time to time I see on film. What I was referring to and must have a different name, is what you see when you shine a flashlight through your hand or fingers; some light gets through. Anyway, nobody knew the proper definition of crepuscular (twilight-like) so I got away with it. -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From richard at filmlight.ltd.uk Mon Mar 30 16:58:05 2009 From: richard at filmlight.ltd.uk (Richard Kirk) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 16:58:05 +0100 Subject: [Tig] What color is it in here? In-Reply-To: <70A16AEE-3B50-4AE0-B8D1-1B8CFBB6B8E2@colorist.org> References: <49D0CDCD.6020705@filmlight.ltd.uk> <70A16AEE-3B50-4AE0-B8D1-1B8CFBB6B8E2@colorist.org> Message-ID: <49D0EC0D.6040007@filmlight.ltd.uk> Rob Lingelbach wrote: > I once made note to a client of what I wrongly called the > "crepuscular" effect of light shining through human skin, which from > time to time I see on film. What I was referring to and must have > a different name, is what you see when you shine a flashlight through > your hand or fingers; some light gets through. Anyway, nobody knew > the proper definition of crepuscular (twilight-like) so I got away > with it. Sticking a flashlight behind your fingers gives you a red light. You get a similar color when you close your eyelids and look at the sun. However, there is another effect that gives you a similar color. I notice it when I can reading on the coach into work and the sunlight is flickering. You get some really strange color shifts and the text goes from looking black to red-orange. This effect was first described by Purkinje (same man - he did a lot for early neuroscience). See... http://www.livescience.com/strangenews/081123-hallucinations.html You get a similar effect when you look into the sun, but you quickly adapt to it. However, I think the artist Turner was aware of the effect. See.. http://www.j-m-w-turner.co.uk/turner-ulysses.htm In his 'Ulysses deriding Polyphemus' you see in the moored ships on the right of the painting, that the detail is done on brown and red, strange brown and red, where you would normally expect features in shadow to look cool, as they are lit from the sky. Turner did this painting ten years after Purkinje's paper. I don't know whether he could have heard of Purkinje's paper, but he did have scientific friends, and he did experiment (he dabbled with UV, and thought it could magnetize needles). Cheers, Richard Kirk -- FilmLight Ltd. Tel: +44 (0)20 7292 0400 or 0409 224 (direct) Artists House, Fax: +44 (0)20 7292 0401 14-15 Manette Street London W1D 4AP From dnakiller at gmail.com Mon Mar 30 17:00:30 2009 From: dnakiller at gmail.com (dnakiller) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 18:00:30 +0200 Subject: [Tig] What color is it in here? In-Reply-To: <70A16AEE-3B50-4AE0-B8D1-1B8CFBB6B8E2@colorist.org> References: <49D0CDCD.6020705@filmlight.ltd.uk> <70A16AEE-3B50-4AE0-B8D1-1B8CFBB6B8E2@colorist.org> Message-ID: <798d1bd30903300900n7fd1a078l1f11b9911674d78b@mail.gmail.com> Scattering From rob at colorist.org Mon Mar 30 17:10:18 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 19:10:18 +0300 Subject: [Tig] What color is it in here? In-Reply-To: <49D0EC0D.6040007@filmlight.ltd.uk> References: <49D0CDCD.6020705@filmlight.ltd.uk> <70A16AEE-3B50-4AE0-B8D1-1B8CFBB6B8E2@colorist.org> <49D0EC0D.6040007@filmlight.ltd.uk> Message-ID: <0D3630E1-74F4-4000-8514-A1872357975B@colorist.org> On Mar 30, 2009, at 6:58 PM, Richard Kirk wrote: > Sticking a flashlight behind your fingers gives you a red light. You > get a similar color when you close your eyelids and look at the sun. right. anyone who has spent time at lower latitudes, who closes their eyes while reclining, notices how blue everything looks when opening the eyes. Brain-color rebalance. > However, there is another effect that gives you a similar color. I > notice it when I can reading on the coach into work and the sunlight > is flickering. You get some really strange color shifts and the text > goes from looking black to red-orange. This effect was first > described by Purkinje (same man - he did a lot for early > neuroscience). See... > > http://www.livescience.com/strangenews/081123-hallucinations.html hm. My main question would be: are there human brains more susceptible to this than others? are the shifts and (as noted in the article) hallucinations, rather personal, or endemic? > In his 'Ulysses deriding Polyphemus' you see in the moored ships on > the right of the painting, that the detail is done on brown and red, > strange brown and red, where you would normally expect features in > shadow to look cool, as they are lit from the sky. yet this, being a work of art, should (if I take Tolstoy's definition) reflect the feelings of the painter (not to exclude science from art). He may be trying to convey a sympathy, or a mood. > Turner did this painting ten years after Purkinje's paper. I don't > know whether he could have heard of Purkinje's paper, but he did > have scientific friends, and he did experiment (he dabbled with UV, > and thought it could magnetize needles). Very interesting about the needles, wonder where that came from. I find that with age and (hopefully) approaching wisdom, art in the realm of painting is as interesting to contemplate, over significant amounts of observing time, as music. god forbid I should start to like opera, but the mind becomes more susceptible with travel.... -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From dnakiller at gmail.com Mon Mar 30 17:13:24 2009 From: dnakiller at gmail.com (dnakiller) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 18:13:24 +0200 Subject: [Tig] What color is it in here? In-Reply-To: <70A16AEE-3B50-4AE0-B8D1-1B8CFBB6B8E2@colorist.org> References: <49D0CDCD.6020705@filmlight.ltd.uk> <70A16AEE-3B50-4AE0-B8D1-1B8CFBB6B8E2@colorist.org> Message-ID: <798d1bd30903300913p4ea43b19g75ba9e8511985694@mail.gmail.com> Sorry, I sent too fast. In 3d world the effect you describe is called Scattering. I remember a study in this way for "a bugs life", where a bug is holding a leaf in front the sun and to recreate in ostensible way the effect, they had to define what this effect is... In the scattering the light is not simply passing trough; the light is influenced by the flesh or a leaf and change the look of the object and change the nature of the light. About the blue night, I really appreciate kirk's messagge, I knew the theory but not in detail. This is always the same subject: why the night is blue? Who cares... :) What we are telling with colour? Magic little girl flying throught the air, two guys stealing a car in LA or a commedy in the 30's These are things that make me change colour in a scene Bye From peter.stansfield at wavecrest-systems.com Mon Mar 30 17:14:41 2009 From: peter.stansfield at wavecrest-systems.com (peter stansfield) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 17:14:41 +0100 Subject: [Tig] What color is it in here? In-Reply-To: References: <49D0CDCD.6020705@filmlight.ltd.uk><70A16AEE-3B50-4AE0-B8D1-1B8CFBB6B8E2@colorist.org> Message-ID: Interestingly, Human heads are one of the most 'non Lambertian' objects known (Lambertian objects look the same colour no matter what angle you view them at). Human skin of any kind is pretty non lambertian, but it's the head that is the most This makes all sorts of problems in synthetic humans, which look the same colour from all angles - therefore giving real humans 'cues' that they're not real There's all sorts of research gone on with skin modelling with subsurface scatting (as in the Brazil renderer) and many attempts on non lambertian dispersion from heads I've got some review papers on this topic if anyone wants to mail me off list - Cornell seems the centre of a lot of it Regards Peter Stansfield Wavecrest Systems Ltd From rob at colorist.org Mon Mar 30 17:17:25 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 19:17:25 +0300 Subject: [Tig] What color is it in here? In-Reply-To: <798d1bd30903300913p4ea43b19g75ba9e8511985694@mail.gmail.com> References: <49D0CDCD.6020705@filmlight.ltd.uk> <70A16AEE-3B50-4AE0-B8D1-1B8CFBB6B8E2@colorist.org> <798d1bd30903300913p4ea43b19g75ba9e8511985694@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <97601362-58DD-4055-8BBE-8F587DB42165@colorist.org> On Mar 30, 2009, at 7:13 PM, dnakiller wrote: > In the scattering the light is not simply passing trough; the light > is influenced by the flesh or a leaf and change the look of the > object and change the nature of the light. Hi dnakiller, (if you could identify yourself and your profession it would help) I think experienced colorists know about this, after working with images for some time. > About the blue night, I really appreciate kirk's messagge, I knew > the theory but not in detail. > This is always the same subject: why the night is blue? Who > cares... :) I do :) this is theoretical. > What we are telling with colour? Magic little girl flying throught > the air, two guys stealing a car in LA or a commedy in the 30's > These are things that make me change colour in a scene but why and in what way, that is what we're after here I believe. -- Rob Lingelbach TIG admin.founder/colorist rob at colorist.org From rob at colorist.org Mon Mar 30 17:33:49 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 19:33:49 +0300 Subject: [Tig] What color is it in here? In-Reply-To: References: <49D0CDCD.6020705@filmlight.ltd.uk><70A16AEE-3B50-4AE0-B8D1-1B8CFBB6B8E2@colorist.org> Message-ID: <7F085F1C-4BF6-40A7-B338-EB9D22029E7E@colorist.org> On Mar 30, 2009, at 7:14 PM, peter stansfield wrote: > Interestingly, Human heads are one of the most 'non Lambertian' > objects known (Lambertian objects look the same colour no matter > what angle you view them at). Human skin of any kind is pretty non > lambertian, but it's the head that is the most when you have a chance, look at the painting "Woman at Prayer" by Surikov, here: http://tinyurl.com/d4zghq . here we see how exquisitely the hands are painted, which could be the most challenging of all anatomy to portray. notice as well- subject to the compression of the web image- how the hands' flesh tone differs from that of the face. Hands more crimson, face paler. it's a most subtle and extraordinarily scientific and artistic difference. We as colorists know that hands not in complete repose reflect a certain increased bloodflow, as exhibited here. I have a print of this painting that does it much more justice than the 8- bit rendering of the web/jpg. The web image has no intimation of the craquelure that the painting has, and is also missing the subtle color differences, to some extent. Yet imagine how long the subject had to pose for this, a painting done in 1879. This painting is the cover of Tolstoy's "the Resurrection" as published by Penguin Classics, and relates strongly to the story. -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From rob at colorist.org Mon Mar 30 17:41:55 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 19:41:55 +0300 Subject: [Tig] What color is it in here? In-Reply-To: <7F085F1C-4BF6-40A7-B338-EB9D22029E7E@colorist.org> References: <49D0CDCD.6020705@filmlight.ltd.uk><70A16AEE-3B50-4AE0-B8D1-1B8CFBB6B8E2@colorist.org> <7F085F1C-4BF6-40A7-B338-EB9D22029E7E@colorist.org> Message-ID: On Mar 30, 2009, at 7:33 PM, Rob Lingelbach wrote: > I have a print of this painting that does it much more justice than > the 8- bit rendering of the web/jpg. The web > image has no intimation of the craquelure that the painting has, and > is also missing the subtle color differences, > to some extent. Yet imagine how long the subject had to pose for > this, a painting done in 1879. here's a tremendously more accurate rendition of the painting, as regarding tones and all else. http://tinyurl.com/c6ptuo -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From richard at filmlight.ltd.uk Mon Mar 30 18:00:04 2009 From: richard at filmlight.ltd.uk (Richard Kirk) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 18:00:04 +0100 Subject: [Tig] What color is it in here? In-Reply-To: <0D3630E1-74F4-4000-8514-A1872357975B@colorist.org> References: <49D0CDCD.6020705@filmlight.ltd.uk> <70A16AEE-3B50-4AE0-B8D1-1B8CFBB6B8E2@colorist.org> <49D0EC0D.6040007@filmlight.ltd.uk> <0D3630E1-74F4-4000-8514-A1872357975B@colorist.org> Message-ID: <49D0FA94.1080509@filmlight.ltd.uk> Rob Lingelbach wrote: >> In his 'Ulysses deriding Polyphemus' you see in the moored ships on >> the right of the painting, that the detail is done on brown and red, >> strange brown and red, where you would normally expect features in >> shadow to look cool, as they are lit from the sky. > yet this, being a work of art, should (if I take Tolstoy's definition) > reflect the feelings of the painter (not to exclude science from > art). He may be trying to convey a sympathy, or a mood. There are all sorts of codes you can send in art. Red has been linked with passion since medieval times, and blue with sanctity (mostly because ultramarine was so expensive, so it was only used for some high-status subject such as the Virgin Mary). There are also cinematic codes such as 'If It's Purple, Someone's Gonna Die' (Patti Bellatoni)'. However, these codes can only be correctly interpreted if you know what the author is trying to say. There do not seem to be clear links between mood and colour that cross all cultures. Goethe described the moods of his Red, Blue, and Yellow primaries as 'Serene' for the red corner, 'Mighty' for the blue corner, and 'Melancholic' for the Yellow, whoah Maan, I got the yellows, I got the yellows reeeal baad (da-Da-da-Dum), etc. I don't think I agree with any of those. I think the blue for night phenomenon, though it is not a blue that any current color measuring instrument will see, is nevertheless something that feels 'right' for anyone. Even some of these phenomena have to be learned. Brunelleschi had to demonstrate that we saw things in perspective by 'wiping' between his drawing and a mirror. However, once we overcome our resistance to the unfamiliar, then it 'feels right' to us. Cheers. Richard Kirk -- FilmLight Ltd. Tel: +44 (0)20 7292 0400 or 0409 224 (direct) Artists House, Fax: +44 (0)20 7292 0401 14-15 Manette Street London W1D 4AP From rob at colorist.org Mon Mar 30 18:16:27 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 20:16:27 +0300 Subject: [Tig] What color is it in here? In-Reply-To: <49D0FA94.1080509@filmlight.ltd.uk> References: <49D0CDCD.6020705@filmlight.ltd.uk> <70A16AEE-3B50-4AE0-B8D1-1B8CFBB6B8E2@colorist.org> <49D0EC0D.6040007@filmlight.ltd.uk> <0D3630E1-74F4-4000-8514-A1872357975B@colorist.org> <49D0FA94.1080509@filmlight.ltd.uk> Message-ID: <5DF73A4E-94CA-4B57-AACE-2FC5DBC9FC75@colorist.org> On Mar 30, 2009, at 8:00 PM, Richard Kirk wrote: > Goethe described the moods of his Red, Blue, and Yellow primaries > as 'Serene' for the red corner, 'Mighty' for the blue corner, and > 'Melancholic' for the Yellow, whoah Maan, I got the yellows, I got > the yellows reeeal baad (da-Da-da-Dum), etc. I don't think I agree > with any of those. I think you had to be of the time; just as music has its modal influences and progression of harmony, so did art, in its shades, hues, tones, etc. > I think the blue for night phenomenon, though it is not a blue that > any current color measuring instrument will see, is nevertheless > something that feels 'right' for anyone. Even some of these > phenomena have to be learned. Brunelleschi had to demonstrate that > we saw things in perspective by 'wiping' between his drawing and a > mirror. However, once we overcome our resistance to the unfamiliar, > then it 'feels right' to us. another example of this, as pointed out extensively in the TIG by P. Swinson, is our psychological reaction to grain, or, stochastic resonance. -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From Stn3 at aol.com Mon Mar 30 17:42:33 2009 From: Stn3 at aol.com (S. T. Nottingham III) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 09:42:33 -0700 Subject: [Tig] What color is it in here? In-Reply-To: <49D0CDCD.6020705@filmlight.ltd.uk> References: <49D0CDCD.6020705@filmlight.ltd.uk> Message-ID: There is a more esoteric reason "The Night Is Blue" and her name is Natalie Kalmus. For those that might not be familiar with the history of color cinematography, Natalie Kalmus was the "wife" of the founder of Technicolor. If you watch the credits of any Technicolor film from 34s and 49s, you will see her listed as the Technicolor Consultant. She, more than any other factor, was the reason for what we have come to know as "The Technicolor Look". She had the final say on the look and feel of any film that employed the Technicolor process, and she ruled with an iron fist. She believed in overly saturated colors and costumes, and any night scene was a brilliant blue. Even though the Technicolor process is very capable of subtle colors, she believed in saturation to the max. This thrilled the viewing public much as early color TV employed the same technique, with the same results. Just think of Gone With The Wind or The Wizard Of Oz if you need an example. She was not afraid to go up against any director or producer, or for that matter, any movie mogul, and if they wanted a color film, she won. There was great pressure to move her out of such a commanding position, and eventually she was sent to England to annoy their film makers. The advent of Eastman Color eventually loosened her grip on the industry, and she spent the rest of her life making her former husband Herbert T. Kalmus miserable - even though they were divorced. By the time her influence over color cinematography waned, the damage was done, so to speak, and the use of the color blue in night scenes became part of the genre. Tom Nottingham -----Original Message----- From: tig-bounces at colorist.org [mailto:tig-bounces at colorist.org] On Behalf Of Richard Kirk Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 6:49 AM To: tig at colorist.org Subject: Re: [Tig] What color is it in here? 2203 subscribers as of March 2009 Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG. Cem Ozkilicci supports the TIG. ==== There are a couple of plausible reasons for night looking blue. From trepperdon at socal.rr.com Mon Mar 30 18:01:21 2009 From: trepperdon at socal.rr.com (trepperdon) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 17:01:21 +0000 Subject: [Tig] Panasonic TH-50PF11UK with dual-link HDSDI Message-ID: <20090330170122.ZZIAR.446127.root@hrndva-web22-z01> I too have experienced the same problem with this model when using the supported Dual Link via it's serial terminal board (TY-FB11DHD). I brought this up with Panasonic support and they said “Factory advises that if there is no SMPTE 352M "payload" in the signal blanking, the TY-FB11DHD will detect the signal as HD-SDI". So according to SMPTE 352M it relates to a 4 byte data packet (video payload ID) that is place in the VANC. It's purpose is used for automatic input format recognition and RGB/YUV color space detection. Remember the old Panasonic corporate slogan "Just slightly ahead of our time". Well I guess it's true in this case. It would have been nice to have had a manual mode for those legacy sources. Don Trepczyk Technicolor - LA From rob at colorist.org Mon Mar 30 18:33:24 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 20:33:24 +0300 Subject: [Tig] TIGNABFS09 Message-ID: <529A7EEF-A090-4532-8311-4A754F6507C4@colorist.org> The TIG NAB Focus Sheet for 2009 now includes new information and references. please see http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3/index.php/TIGNABFS09 Digital Vision Cintel RTI (Special News on Scanning and Recording) Autodesk FilmLight FSI (Flanders Scientific) and for regular commercial announcements, open to any manufacturer, see http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3/index.php/Commercial_announcements -- Rob Lingelbach TIG admin.founder since 1992 rob at colorist.org From dnakiller at gmail.com Mon Mar 30 18:56:13 2009 From: dnakiller at gmail.com (dnakiller) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 19:56:13 +0200 Subject: [Tig] What color is it in here? In-Reply-To: <97601362-58DD-4055-8BBE-8F587DB42165@colorist.org> References: <49D0CDCD.6020705@filmlight.ltd.uk> <70A16AEE-3B50-4AE0-B8D1-1B8CFBB6B8E2@colorist.org> <798d1bd30903300913p4ea43b19g75ba9e8511985694@mail.gmail.com> <97601362-58DD-4055-8BBE-8F587DB42165@colorist.org> Message-ID: <798d1bd30903301056q38784370m8258cf0808535aae@mail.gmail.com> Hi Rob, My name is Gabriele Peloso I work at Frame by Frame in Rome, using Quantel Pablo on eQ. I usually work for commercial but often I also work on tv series and less often on movies. Right now I'm grading a 2 episodes "movie" shooted with Red for Sky italia. From ted at tedlangdell.com Tue Mar 31 04:25:20 2009 From: ted at tedlangdell.com (Ted Langdell) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 20:25:20 -0700 Subject: [Tig] RED workflow on Honda Generator spots--Oliver Peters blogs about it. Message-ID: With RED material in colorists hands more and more... this might be of interest and use: FCP/Avid editor Oliver Peters just finished a job with RED material where he was the editor, post supervisor and colorist, and blogs about the workflow he adopted for the project. http://digitalfilms.wordpress.com/2009/03/28/red-post-–-the-easy-way/ Ted Ted Langdell flashscan8.us 209 East 12th Street Marysville, CA 95901 Main: (530) 741-1212 Cell: (530) 301-2931 Skype: TedLangdell Quad/Telecine/Editor lunch at NAB: Tuesday, Apr. 21 12:30p, convenient to South Hall. From bob at bluescreen.com Tue Mar 31 16:29:06 2009 From: bob at bluescreen.com (Bob Kertesz) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 08:29:06 -0700 Subject: [Tig] RED workflow on Honda Generator spots--Oliver Peters blogs about it. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >FCP/Avid editor Oliver Peters just finished a job with RED material >where he was the editor, post supervisor and colorist, and blogs about >the workflow he adopted for the project. What I find interesting is that every RED job I've seen discussed at length seems to involve a long and complex DIY structure, where the person doing the work is constantly improvising and making do, and software revisions for dealing with the RED files often change in the middle of any given project, and not always for the better. RED finish is a non-stop source of endless ideas and posts on the Cinematographers' forum, where every job seems to be unique, often involving the re-inventing of the wheel and the discovery of fire. I suppose it's to be expected from a $17K camera body, and I find it interesting that people put up with this crap, where if the same effort was required to post a Sony or Panasonic or Kodak originated product, the peasants would be storming the castle with burning bullrushes. Not to mention that it took more than a year and many firmware revisions and a sensor swap before that $17K body was even usable in a professional environment. No other "pro" camera manufacturer has ever been given that kind of slack. --Bob Bob Kertesz BlueScreen LLC Hollywood, California bob at bluescreen.com The Ultimate in ULTIMATTE® compositing. For details, visit http://www.bluescreen.com From jfmann at optimum.net Tue Mar 31 14:23:39 2009 From: jfmann at optimum.net (Jim Mann) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 09:23:39 -0400 Subject: [Tig] Filmlight BLT Event & SMPTE/locations changed! details added In-Reply-To: <001001c9aee3$6696fc30$33c4f490$@net> References: <28375BA0FC85BC4084C942D659F636E9175C7493@NYCCNDX02.cbsnewsenps.cbsnews.net> <001001c9aee3$6696fc30$33c4f490$@net> Message-ID: <001301c9b203$e7a33a50$b6e9aef0$@net> Please note the location of the April 7th thru the 9th Filmlight event has been changed. See the Main TIG calendar at: http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3/index.php/Calendars:TIG_main See the Filmlight event at: http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3/index.php/Calendars:TIG_main/Public/4-7-2009_-Event_2 Still No word if they will be serving BLT's sandwiches. ALSO see the new details on the April 7th SMPTE New York section Meeting. AT: http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3/index.php/Calendars:TIG_main/Public/4-7-2009_-Event_1 Regards, Jim Jim Mann Colorist/daVinci Product Specialist [ POSTWORKS ] NEW YORK 100 Avenue of Americas, 10th Floor New York, NY 10013 T 212 894 4000 C 516-250-0909 F 212 941 0439 http://www.postworks.com http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3/index.php/User:Jim_Mann Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail. _______________________________________________ http://reels.colorist.org http://www.colorist.org/wiki3 From rob at colorist.org Tue Mar 31 17:16:25 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 19:16:25 +0300 Subject: [Tig] RED workflow on Honda Generator spots--Oliver Peters blogs about it. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mar 31, 2009, at 6:29 PM, Bob Kertesz wrote: > RED finish is a non-stop source of endless ideas and posts on the > Cinematographers' forum, where every job seems to be unique I worked very recently with material originated on Arri D21. The dynamic range, color depth, all were absolutely wonderful to work with. I eagerly await more material from this camera. (i have no connection whatsoever with Arri) -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From rob at cinelab.com Tue Mar 31 17:47:25 2009 From: rob at cinelab.com (Robert Houllahan) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 12:47:25 -0400 Subject: [Tig] RED workflow on Honda Generator spots--Oliver Peters blogs about it. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > I suppose it's to be expected from a $17K camera body, and I find it > interesting that people put up with this crap, where if the same > effort was > required to post a Sony or Panasonic or Kodak originated product, > the peasants > would be storming the castle with burning bullrushes. But Bob it's got Four K's count 'em FOUR Kay's What's a MTF? I cant count to 40lp/mm I don't even know what that is.... hula Robert Houllahan rob at cinelab.com Filmmaker Vp Cinelab Inc. www.cinelab.com From bob at bluescreen.com Tue Mar 31 17:53:51 2009 From: bob at bluescreen.com (Bob Kertesz) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 09:53:51 -0700 Subject: [Tig] Arri D21 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <19i4t4pglpjun5v29nj0sn9lf1dpgdbc4b@4ax.com> >I worked very recently with material originated on Arri D21. The dynamic >range, color depth, all were absolutely wonderful to work with. I eagerly >await more material from this camera. Did the footage come in on tape, or was it the file-based DDR stuff? Do you know which of the many available gamma and color curves were used to get the dynamic range and depth which gave you the latitude? I've worked with the camera before, and did some best-guess setup, but real information about exactly what the various settings do to the curves is VERY scarce. Just getting a PDF of the operations manual was an exercise in international diplomacy. Having said that, I was quite pleased with the final product as it came out of Sparkle's bay at Complete Post. They have very recently started selling it (it was only available as a rental previously), and I suspect they're going to have to be a lot more forthcoming about such things, especially at the prices they're asking... --Bob Bob Kertesz BlueScreen LLC Hollywood, California bob at bluescreen.com The Ultimate in ULTIMATTE® compositing. For details, visit http://www.bluescreen.com From jpo at prestodigital.ca Tue Mar 31 18:12:58 2009 From: jpo at prestodigital.ca (Joe Owens) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 11:12:58 -0600 Subject: [Tig] RED workflow on Honda Generator spots--Oliver Peters blogs about it. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hmmm. Similar to my (admittedly limited) experience. I found the blog itself almost unreadable, but interesting that he simply chose to throw away the metadata and go with "locked" ProRes QT. He's probably right, though -- the footage and test material that I've seen so far seems to be boxed into such a narrow and highly compressed codec that whether you've got the option to yank around the ISO or not is probably meaningless. Far less so than OCN, for sure. His note that the triad good/fast/cheap is still in force is only partially correct, when it comes to REDOne: you only get to choose one, now. I'm also mystified by his assertion that whatever it was he did with the FCP color correction plugin would have been more difficult in COLOR. Perhaps not all that conversant with that app, then. Joe Owens Presto!Digital Colourgrade 302-9664 106 Avenue Edmonton, Alberta T5H0N4 +1 780 421-9980 jpo at prestodigital.ca From rob at colorist.org Tue Mar 31 18:09:45 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 20:09:45 +0300 Subject: [Tig] Arri D21 In-Reply-To: <19i4t4pglpjun5v29nj0sn9lf1dpgdbc4b@4ax.com> References: <19i4t4pglpjun5v29nj0sn9lf1dpgdbc4b@4ax.com> Message-ID: <71744DD0-E339-40E8-82EB-2B6A06557FA2@colorist.org> On Mar 31, 2009, at 7:53 PM, Bob Kertesz wrote: > Did the footage come in on tape, or was it the file-based DDR stuff? file-based. > Do you know which of the many available gamma and color curves were > used to > get the dynamic range and depth which gave you the latitude? sorry to say I don't. I suspect the rental house does advise the DPs, as it has a connection with Arri in Germany. > I've worked with the camera before, and did some best-guess setup, > but real > information about exactly what the various settings do to the curves > is VERY > scarce. Just getting a PDF of the operations manual was an exercise in > international diplomacy. did you do some tests first? There's often not enough time. -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us Tue Mar 31 18:19:51 2009 From: bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us (Bob Friesenhahn) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 12:19:51 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [Tig] RED workflow on Honda Generator spots--Oliver Peters blogs about it. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 31 Mar 2009, Bob Kertesz wrote: > > I suppose it's to be expected from a $17K camera body, and I find it > interesting that people put up with this crap, where if the same effort was > required to post a Sony or Panasonic or Kodak originated product, the peasants > would be storming the castle with burning bullrushes. Not to mention that it > took more than a year and many firmware revisions and a sensor swap before > that $17K body was even usable in a professional environment. No other "pro" > camera manufacturer has ever been given that kind of slack. If this camera vendor (RED) causes such problems then why did you decide to use this camera rather than an already proven Sony, Panasonic, Kodak, Arri, or Panavision product? The RED "marketing" has been famous for a few years already, since the creation of the original RED web site. Bob -- Bob Friesenhahn bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/ GraphicsMagick Maintainer, http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/ From bigboy at seducedandexploited.com Tue Mar 31 18:54:59 2009 From: bigboy at seducedandexploited.com (Barry Gilbert) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 13:54:59 -0400 Subject: [Tig] RED workflow on Honda Generator spots--Oliver Petersblogs about it. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0632614344AA42E494A9E6DFCA95E30C@Sweet> People use the RED camera because it's an ever more affordable tool for modestly budgeted shoots seeking 4K resolution, an option to use 35mm lenses without using cumbersome adapters and the relatively quick posting turnaround that its workflow affords. It's not a manufacturer or marketing issue it's a money issue as 95% of things in production are. Cameras like the D-21 while inarguably superior are appropriate for only a fraction of projects. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Barry Gilbert | Producer Seduced & Exploited 127 4th Avenue, Ste. PH-C New York, NY 10003 Cell: 310.963.6317 http://www.seducedandexploited.com From bob at bluescreen.com Tue Mar 31 19:28:44 2009 From: bob at bluescreen.com (Bob Kertesz) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 11:28:44 -0700 Subject: [Tig] RED workflow on Honda Generator spots--Oliver Peters blogs about it. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >If this camera vendor (RED) causes such problems then why did you >decide to use this camera rather than an already proven Sony, >Panasonic, Kodak, Arri, or Panavision product? I did not use it. I have actually gone out of my way to avoid it. I was commenting on the camera in general, based on the many things I've read from those who have. Often, the decision to use one camera over another is made by those with little knowledge of technical or workflow issues. I only get asked for my recommendation about half the time; the other half, I'm called and told what camera will be used. And even when I'm asked, I can be overridden by almost anyone above the line, or the DP, or the editor, or the colorist, or... The choice of camera and format is sometimes based on wanting to appear cutting edge rather than anything sane. There's simply no other explanation for the number of calls I get from people wanting to shoot 2K or even 4K 4:4:4 for cellphone delivery. Until they hear what it's going to cost. Then we come crashing back down to earth. --Bob Bob Kertesz BlueScreen LLC Hollywood, California bob at bluescreen.com The Ultimate in ULTIMATTE® compositing. For details, visit http://www.bluescreen.com From rob at colorist.org Tue Mar 31 19:33:31 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 21:33:31 +0300 Subject: [Tig] camera thoughts (was: Re: RED workflow) In-Reply-To: <0632614344AA42E494A9E6DFCA95E30C@Sweet> References: <0632614344AA42E494A9E6DFCA95E30C@Sweet> Message-ID: <0D980F20-A2BB-4EA7-8CE3-58D6F733589B@colorist.org> On Mar 31, 2009, at 8:54 PM, Barry Gilbert wrote: > People use the RED camera because it's an ever more affordable tool > for modestly budgeted shoots seeking 4K resolution, I think the 4K resolution factor has been dispensed with eloquently by others, showing that even some high-end HD cameras outperform Red's 4k in many ways. -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us Tue Mar 31 19:48:37 2009 From: bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us (Bob Friesenhahn) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 13:48:37 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [Tig] camera thoughts (was: Re: RED workflow) In-Reply-To: <0D980F20-A2BB-4EA7-8CE3-58D6F733589B@colorist.org> References: <0632614344AA42E494A9E6DFCA95E30C@Sweet> <0D980F20-A2BB-4EA7-8CE3-58D6F733589B@colorist.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 31 Mar 2009, Rob Lingelbach wrote: > > I think the 4K resolution factor has been dispensed with eloquently by > others, showing that even some high-end HD cameras > outperform Red's 4k in many ways. Maybe someone who has one of these Red 4K cameras can mount a good lens and point it at a standard resolution measurement chart and post the result? Yes, there are standard ways to measure actual resolution ... Bob -- Bob Friesenhahn bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/ GraphicsMagick Maintainer, http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/ From rob at colorist.org Tue Mar 31 19:55:51 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 21:55:51 +0300 Subject: [Tig] camera thoughts (was: Re: RED workflow) In-Reply-To: References: <0632614344AA42E494A9E6DFCA95E30C@Sweet> <0D980F20-A2BB-4EA7-8CE3-58D6F733589B@colorist.org> Message-ID: On Mar 31, 2009, at 9:48 PM, Bob Friesenhahn wrote: > Maybe someone who has one of these Red 4K cameras can mount a good > lens and point it at a standard resolution measurement chart and > post the result? > > Yes, there are standard ways to measure actual resolution ... it's a question that includes, however, compression, photosites/ pixels, color depth, and how the compression allows for a filesize of about 1.5 MB per frame, when you consider what you would need for true 4K. There's been great misuse of the term 'RAW.' A DPX file of 4K pixels would be 36 MB. if you consider Red shooting 1.5 MB per frame, that's a 24-to-1 compression ratio. -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From bigboy at seducedandexploited.com Tue Mar 31 19:55:04 2009 From: bigboy at seducedandexploited.com (Barry Gilbert) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 14:55:04 -0400 Subject: [Tig] camera thoughts (was: Re: RED workflow) In-Reply-To: <0D980F20-A2BB-4EA7-8CE3-58D6F733589B@colorist.org> References: <0632614344AA42E494A9E6DFCA95E30C@Sweet> <0D980F20-A2BB-4EA7-8CE3-58D6F733589B@colorist.org> Message-ID: I think you're missing my point which is not that the RED necessarily holds up well against the higher end HD cameras, or certainly film, but that it provides certain benefits such as 4K resolution at a price-point that those cameras cannot match. A ferrari is a great car but its cost is unjustifiable for many situations in which a car with less horsepower would be more suitable. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Barry Gilbert | Producer Seduced & Exploited 127 4th Avenue, Ste. PH-C New York, NY 10003 Cell: 310.963.6317 http://www.seducedandexploited.com From rob at colorist.org Tue Mar 31 19:58:04 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 21:58:04 +0300 Subject: [Tig] camera thoughts (was: Re: RED workflow) In-Reply-To: References: <0632614344AA42E494A9E6DFCA95E30C@Sweet> <0D980F20-A2BB-4EA7-8CE3-58D6F733589B@colorist.org> Message-ID: On Mar 31, 2009, at 9:55 PM, Barry Gilbert wrote: > I think you're missing my point which is not that the RED > necessarily holds up well against the higher end HD cameras, or > certainly film, but that it provides certain benefits such as 4K > resolution I don't think it's 4k resolution, the math doesn't hold up. -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From bob at bluescreen.com Tue Mar 31 20:10:07 2009 From: bob at bluescreen.com (Bob Kertesz) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 12:10:07 -0700 Subject: [Tig] camera thoughts (was: Re: RED workflow) In-Reply-To: References: <0632614344AA42E494A9E6DFCA95E30C@Sweet> <0D980F20-A2BB-4EA7-8CE3-58D6F733589B@colorist.org> Message-ID: >Yes, there are standard ways to measure actual resolution ... Not once you enter the magical mystical world of debayering algorithms. At that point, it becomes liar's poker, hence the many varying post paths, claims, counterclaims, arguments and impassioned white papers with worse than useless .JPG attachments. --Bob Bob Kertesz BlueScreen LLC Hollywood, California bob at bluescreen.com The Ultimate in ULTIMATTE® compositing. For details, visit http://www.bluescreen.com From rob at cinelab.com Tue Mar 31 20:09:37 2009 From: rob at cinelab.com (Robert Houllahan) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 15:09:37 -0400 Subject: [Tig] camera thoughts (was: Re: RED workflow) In-Reply-To: References: <0632614344AA42E494A9E6DFCA95E30C@Sweet> <0D980F20-A2BB-4EA7-8CE3-58D6F733589B@colorist.org> Message-ID: <9AADC028-8D74-4CE3-9166-481DEFCC9103@cinelab.com> > Maybe someone who has one of these Red 4K cameras can mount a good > lens and point it at a standard resolution measurement chart and > post the result? A CML member did just that with a 85mm Zeiss MK2 superspeed and a century precision chart measurement of red vs. 5217. The 35mm was "better than" 62lp/mm the red was 42lp/mm or about 2.8K if you prefer. I think even Jannard has admitted to a 2.8k ish number from a 4K de- bayer. That makes the 2K windowed about 1.3k after demosaic if measured as MTF. I'll email the CML-er and see if he can't post his chart to TIG.. -Rob- Robert Houllahan rob at cinelab.com Filmmaker Vp Cinelab Inc. www.cinelab.com From mlbnyc at verizon.net Tue Mar 31 20:18:30 2009 From: mlbnyc at verizon.net (Michael Bittle) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 15:18:30 -0400 Subject: [Tig] camera thoughts (was: Re: RED workflow) In-Reply-To: References: <0632614344AA42E494A9E6DFCA95E30C@Sweet> <0D980F20-A2BB-4EA7-8CE3-58D6F733589B@colorist.org> Message-ID: <97F3ED19-76E9-45B2-8359-3296F7AAFC7E@verizon.net> I think there's also a "false economy" with Red in specific in that the entry price is low, production costs (camera wise) are low... and it all blows up in post.. but since nothing is established, no condition is permanent, no-one is getting billed for the "overages" of figuring the whole mess out - every time, since every time seems to be different. So it's slow and painful for all, but true costs are under the radar. We spend a not-insignificant amount of overhead just testing and trying to stay one step ahead.... funded, of course, by film. IMHO, Mike From bob at bluescreen.com Tue Mar 31 20:25:30 2009 From: bob at bluescreen.com (Bob Kertesz) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 12:25:30 -0700 Subject: [Tig] camera thoughts (was: Re: RED workflow) In-Reply-To: References: <0632614344AA42E494A9E6DFCA95E30C@Sweet> <0D980F20-A2BB-4EA7-8CE3-58D6F733589B@colorist.org> Message-ID: >A ferrari is a great car but its cost is >unjustifiable for many situations in which a car with less horsepower would >be more suitable. I completely agree with that, as long as the Ford owners with less horsepower stop shouting that their car is just as good and as fast as the Ferrari under any conditions, and it's only The Man and his huge profit margins trying to hold them back that prevents people from recognizing that. --Bob Bob Kertesz BlueScreen LLC Hollywood, California bob at bluescreen.com The Ultimate in ULTIMATTE® compositing. For details, visit http://www.bluescreen.com From rob at colorist.org Tue Mar 31 20:33:35 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 22:33:35 +0300 Subject: [Tig] camera thoughts (was: Re: RED workflow) In-Reply-To: References: <0632614344AA42E494A9E6DFCA95E30C@Sweet> <0D980F20-A2BB-4EA7-8CE3-58D6F733589B@colorist.org> Message-ID: <92C900B2-7C2F-4720-B42C-52B16E248E96@colorist.org> On Mar 31, 2009, at 10:25 PM, Bob Kertesz wrote: > I completely agree with that, as long as the Ford owners with less > horsepower and let's not forget that it's not just a matter of horsepower, but also torque, turning radius, handling, suspension, turns lock-to-lock, gear ratio, driver, reliability, .... i.e. saying "I've got 500 hp!" is similar to saying "I've got 4k!" An exaggerated reduction. -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From njohnson at sc.rr.com Tue Mar 31 20:34:17 2009 From: njohnson at sc.rr.com (Nick Johnson) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 15:34:17 -0400 Subject: [Tig] camera thoughts (was: Re: RED workflow) In-Reply-To: References: <0632614344AA42E494A9E6DFCA95E30C@Sweet> <0D980F20-A2BB-4EA7-8CE3-58D6F733589B@colorist.org> Message-ID: <012c01c9b237$aef55970$0ce00c50$@rr.com> Bob and Rob(H), My son in LA might be able to do this and provide a file to compare with the CML-er's. He has a RED One he uses for his own shoots but he also rents it to other productions and most of the time he accompanies the camera on those rentals for proper set-up and shooting advice since the RED ONE is very different. I think he is quite the "expert" on RED ONE - but then he is my son! Is the resolution chart you mention something he should have? If not where can he get one? I will ask him about posting a 4K shot of the chart and see what he says. That way there would be something to compare with the other shot which may or may not have been done with "optimum" RED settings. Best regards, Nick By "do this" above I am referring to Bob's comment below and Rob(H)'s which followed relating to the shot done by the CML-er. Maybe someone who has one of these Red 4K cameras can mount a good lens and point it at a standard resolution measurement chart and post the result? Yes, there are standard ways to measure actual resolution ... Bob From bigboy at seducedandexploited.com Tue Mar 31 20:33:22 2009 From: bigboy at seducedandexploited.com (Barry Gilbert) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 15:33:22 -0400 Subject: [Tig] camera thoughts (was: Re: RED workflow) In-Reply-To: <97F3ED19-76E9-45B2-8359-3296F7AAFC7E@verizon.net> References: <0632614344AA42E494A9E6DFCA95E30C@Sweet> <0D980F20-A2BB-4EA7-8CE3-58D6F733589B@colorist.org> <97F3ED19-76E9-45B2-8359-3296F7AAFC7E@verizon.net> Message-ID: <7054F1844FD14926841C0EE8C6909213@Sweet> >From the perspective of a colorist that might be true, but it sounds more like you've dealt with incompetent productions than there being any particular problem with the system. To be clear, I'm not even a big fan of the RED's imagery, I think it's subject to some of the most common criticisms of HD, i.e. it looks "plasticy", doesn't handle highlights that well and gives funky renditions of skin tones. However if you're going to talk "economy" there's a myriad of benefits to a RED choice which are predicated by the realities of the permanent equation "time=money", which depending on how it's handled can provide better or worse source material. A "4K" camera, or whatever arbitrary resolution you care to assign to it inarguably allows you to punch in on a subject in an edit without a noticable loss of quality, which can allow an AD with that knowledge to simplify a shoot schedule - effectively combining a medium and a close up which may as a result allot more time to carefully light certain scenes which will result in a more beautiful overall image, irregardless of the resolution of the camera. The post workflow of the RED is for all intents and purposes the same as film, so it shouldn't be confusing to anyone familiar with a film workflow - yet the abilit to immediately begin working on a rough edit using proxies is a blessing in an industry in which delivery schedules get shorter and shorter. My overarching point is not that the RED is even a Top 5 HD camera from an aesthetic perspective, but that it's aesthetics are only partially relevant to assessing it's role in creating a good finished product. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Barry Gilbert | Producer Seduced & Exploited 127 4th Avenue, Ste. PH-C New York, NY 10003 Cell: 310.963.6317 http://www.seducedandexploited.com From rob at colorist.org Tue Mar 31 20:45:14 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 22:45:14 +0300 Subject: [Tig] camera thoughts (was: Re: RED workflow) In-Reply-To: <012c01c9b237$aef55970$0ce00c50$@rr.com> References: <0632614344AA42E494A9E6DFCA95E30C@Sweet> <0D980F20-A2BB-4EA7-8CE3-58D6F733589B@colorist.org> <012c01c9b237$aef55970$0ce00c50$@rr.com> Message-ID: <153412A2-E0B1-41A3-A158-210D1AFB72C2@colorist.org> On Mar 31, 2009, at 10:34 PM, Nick Johnson wrote: > > I will ask him about posting a 4K shot of the chart and see what he > says. Hi Nick, thanks for the offer. It can't be 4k, however, by definition. and if he could also shoot some motion at Red's max resolution, at varying light levels.. ... it gets to be that we'd need to set up tests that all have been done before. > That way there would be something to compare with the other shot > which may > or may not have been done with "optimum" RED settings. I don't think anyone is arguing that Red should not be a viable choice as a camera for shooting. As colorists, many of our clients use it and we work with the images and often get results that please the clients, and that's our job. But the claims that it's '4k RAW' are extremely misleading and inconceivable. Then, compare it to Genesis, D21, F23, etc. and then it gets very interesting, how the 4k argument almost becomes secondary to other factors like compression artifacts, dynamic range, color depth.. -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From adrian at autotv.co.uk Tue Mar 31 22:07:53 2009 From: adrian at autotv.co.uk (Adrian Thomas) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 22:07:53 +0100 Subject: [Tig] camera thoughts (was: Re: RED workflow) In-Reply-To: References: <0632614344AA42E494A9E6DFCA95E30C@Sweet> <0D980F20-A2BB-4EA7-8CE3-58D6F733589B@colorist.org> Message-ID: On Mar 31, 2009, at 19:48, Bob Friesenhahn wrote: > > On Tue, 31 Mar 2009, Rob Lingelbach wrote: >> >> I think the 4K resolution factor has been dispensed with >> eloquently by others, showing that even some high-end HD cameras >> outperform Red's 4k in many ways. > > Maybe someone who has one of these Red 4K cameras can mount a good > lens and point it at a standard resolution measurement chart and > post the result? > > Yes, there are standard ways to measure actual resolution ... ...total can of worms. Don't go there (as they used to say in the '90s). If it's a Bayer design just use your knowledge of Bayer to infer an approximate value. Much more bothersome to me is all the image data compression that's used in a typical Red workflow - makes an SR camcorder look like a paragon of virtue by comparison. -- Adrian Thomas AUTOMATIC TELEVISION 35 BEDFORDBURY LONDON WC2N 4DU www.autotv.co.uk +44 (0) 20 7240 2073 -- From bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us Tue Mar 31 21:26:16 2009 From: bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us (Bob Friesenhahn) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 15:26:16 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [Tig] camera thoughts (was: Re: RED workflow) In-Reply-To: <012c01c9b237$aef55970$0ce00c50$@rr.com> References: <0632614344AA42E494A9E6DFCA95E30C@Sweet> <0D980F20-A2BB-4EA7-8CE3-58D6F733589B@colorist.org> <012c01c9b237$aef55970$0ce00c50$@rr.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 31 Mar 2009, Nick Johnson wrote: > > I think he is quite the "expert" on RED ONE - but then he is my son! > > Is the resolution chart you mention something he should have? I used to have a captured image of the standard test chart but unfortunately I lost it. Here is some info that I just found: http://www.graphics.cornell.edu/~westin/misc/res-chart.html The standard test chart costs money but it seems that this page has a look-alike which can be printed given a suitable printer. Here are some more: http://www.bealecorner.com/trv900/respat/ Note that to test a "4K" camera the test pattern needs to go up to 2K lines which might require a larger print if the printer is not good enough. Here is one which goes pretty far up in quality: http://www.bealecorner.com/trv900/respat/respat.pdf As Rob says, resolution is a system-level function which includes the camera, lens, base storage format, compression, debayering, and any additional necessary post-processing. Bob -- Bob Friesenhahn bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/ GraphicsMagick Maintainer, http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/ From rob at cinelab.com Tue Mar 31 21:26:59 2009 From: rob at cinelab.com (Robert Houllahan) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 16:26:59 -0400 Subject: [Tig] camera thoughts (was: Re: RED workflow) In-Reply-To: <153412A2-E0B1-41A3-A158-210D1AFB72C2@colorist.org> References: <0632614344AA42E494A9E6DFCA95E30C@Sweet> <0D980F20-A2BB-4EA7-8CE3-58D6F733589B@colorist.org> <012c01c9b237$aef55970$0ce00c50$@rr.com> <153412A2-E0B1-41A3-A158-210D1AFB72C2@colorist.org> Message-ID: <75FD4D43-BCD4-4221-B625-E04AB4FF3D20@cinelab.com> >> I will ask him about posting a 4K shot of the chart and see what he >> says. > Hi Nick, thanks for the offer. It can't be 4k, however, by > definition. Also I would suggest searching the CML (cinematography.net) under 2K- Single sensor because this subject has been beaten to death by top pro cinematographer types. It seems to be all but common knowledge amongst those that think or measure things that a bayer mask camera is able to deliver 2/3 of the "monochrome" pixel resolution of the sensor. That is due to good demosaicing algorithms which know about color overlap in the CFA and exploit it to add resolution. The D21 makes a 1.9K (HD) picture from a 3K sensor and the Genesis/F35 do similarly. I think red has used the "4K" moniker as a marketing tool effectively but I think that when Jannard&co. speak to professionals they are more circumspect about the resolution numbers. -Rob- Robert Houllahan rob at cinelab.com Filmmaker Vp Cinelab Inc. www.cinelab.com From rob at colorist.org Tue Mar 31 22:20:53 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 00:20:53 +0300 Subject: [Tig] intercepted on the wire Message-ID: <0056A08F-C91D-41B5-916D-8EC1F519AE42@colorist.org> Just intercepted this on the wire, for publication apparently tomorrow in the US, today in Europe and the Far East: 293ALKJEQ|START RELEASE For Immediate Delivery, from Publicist Presley Reese: National Association of Broadcasters, Latest News, April 1, 2009 The National Association of Broadcasters, representing over 1,200 US and International Broadcasters, Production Facilities, Post-Production Facilities, and Certified NAB partners worldwide, announced today a special event for this year's Las Vegas Convention. Two new, revolutionary and futuristic digital cameras, taking advantage of previously unavailable texture processing and pixel management, will be launched. "Tweed," which clothes images in a user-selectable diagonal array, along with "See'r,sucker," which adds sophisticated vertical aliasing control, will be launched on the shore of Steve Wynn's surprise mega-project, "Wynn's Atlantic." Wynn has replicated the Atlantic Ocean, at 1/1000 scale, having drained the reservoirs of Lakes Powell and Mead to produce a hyper-realistic oceanic experience in true Las Vegas tradition. Holesailors will be invited to brave a whirlpool in the "Pick Sell Challenge" to decide which of them obtains which camera to bring to market. Each of these cameras is powered by twin miniature Evinrude motors of .5 whoresperhour, and will be launched on the west side of his ocean at the beginning of the convention, to reach the "You're a Peon" side in Pahrump, Nevada, at convention's end. The launch will include a free launch. "We wanted to show how these new cameras will brave the wavelets of the HyperAtlantic," said Wynn. The ensuing happiness among launch attendees will most likely cause the NAB 2009 slogan, "Content Comes to Life" to be adjusted to "Content with Life." 02938\23jEND RELEASE -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us Tue Mar 31 22:55:58 2009 From: bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us (Bob Friesenhahn) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 16:55:58 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [Tig] camera thoughts (was: Re: RED workflow) In-Reply-To: References: <0632614344AA42E494A9E6DFCA95E30C@Sweet> <0D980F20-A2BB-4EA7-8CE3-58D6F733589B@colorist.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 31 Mar 2009, Adrian Thomas wrote: >> >> Yes, there are standard ways to measure actual resolution ... > > ...total can of worms. Don't go there (as they used to say in the '90s). If > it's a Bayer design just use your knowledge of Bayer to infer an approximate > value. Much more bothersome to me is all the image data compression that's > used in a typical Red workflow - makes an SR camcorder look like a paragon of > virtue by comparison. Maybe a total can of worms but shouldn't the camera owner (or prospective owner) be aware of what they will actually be getting for their money? It seems doubtful that an analysis based on the Bayer design is going to provide a full/truthful story either. Bob -- Bob Friesenhahn bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/ GraphicsMagick Maintainer, http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/ From rickpags at yahoo.com Tue Mar 31 22:59:47 2009 From: rickpags at yahoo.com (wbpags) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 14:59:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tig] camera thoughts (was: Re: RED workflow) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <553603.73052.qm@web55005.mail.re4.yahoo.com> I own a Ford...it sucks...and the cost is still unjustifiable even if it is a lot cheaper. Cheaper isn't always better but then I guess neither is expensive at times? "better RED than dead"? ah maybe not?